The Unit Is Gone

It's final. Randy Johnson has been traded back to the Arizona Diamondbacks. The haul, as per Peter Abraham (commentary is ours):

RHP Luis Vizcaino. A 32 year-old journeyman with a mediocre WHIP. In the NL.
RHP Ross Ohlendorf. He went to Princeton. Decent numbers in AA.
RHP Stephen Jackson. Didn't go to Princeton. Decent numbers in AA.
SS Alberto Gonzalez. No worries, Derek!

So let's call it what it was: a salary dump with a few decent prospects thrown in. A good deal for Arizona, in our opinion. Prepare for a series of field-good profiles of Ohlendorf, the Ivy Kid. Now, Mr. Cashman, exactly how do you plan on replacing those 17 wins? Hmm? We're waiting....

Comments

[m.g. yanks fan]

so now we either have to count on clemens (which seems silly) or try to make a trade for a SP.

i'm still not sure how much i like this move.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

deep breaths, m.g.

it's january, my friend.

ca$hman is all over this, i'm sure.

...he is... right?

[m.g. yanks fan]

no worries YFIB, i'm relatively calm all things considered. especially since i'm usually a mess whenever something goes down. i like most of the things cashman has done so far, i'm just not sure what direction he's going in now.

[Andrew]

I think we can easily get a 5.00 ERA and 17 wins out of a combination of karstens/rasner/sanchez/hughes/whatever.

And it's hard to imagine Igawa being as nail-bitingly awful as Jaret Wright. Okay, no it's not.

[Mike A.]

How are they going to replace those 17 wins??? I guess Andy Pettitte isn't being counted on for much...

[Paul SF]

Considering the names being thrown around even recently (Linebrink, etc.), I'd be disappointed as a YF. I'm pleasantly surprised as a SF. The prospects don't even strike me as rising to the caliber needed to pry Willis away from the Marlins.

[Whatever]

If Johnson had stayed with the Yanks and pitched like he did last year, chances are he wouldn't have won 17 again, unless of course, he once again got a 7.51 per game run support, which was, btw, the most in the AL.

[Whatever]

So the Yanks didn't have to pay any of RJ salary? If true, that's a big plus.

[Paul SF]

That must have been part of the hold up. The Backs refused to give up the better prospects if they were going to have to pay the whole shebang. The Yanks may have decided they needed to free up the space more than they needed the big-name prospect.

/Complete and utter speculation

[Rob SF]

Is there a chance the salary dump allows them to pursue Santana next year?

[SF]

Salary dump or personality dump?

[Paul SF]

Rob, you mean after 2008? Johnson would have been off the books by then anyway, I think.

[Whatever]

Frankly, I'm thrilled he's gone. Besides his mostly lousy performance last year, and another crap-out in the playoffs, I found his demeanor on the mound embarrassing, complaining frequently, and constantly glaring in at the umpire when he didn't get a call, sometimes on pitches that were clearly balls.

And I would be willing to bet that the rest of the players in the clubhouse are delighted by this move.

[Lar]

Paul - I would've loved Linebrink, but maybe now that we have all this farm as capital, we can go out and get something worthwhile - either now or right before the deadline..

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Goodbye Randy, can't say I was ever a big fan. This was 100% a salary dump and most importantly a PERSONALITY dump. RJ is NOT a NY guy, too bad it took two years of getting our hopes up to determine that. As for replacing him will still have 5 SP's (Moose, Wang, AP, Igawa and Pavano) so if they don't make any moves, so be it they have until July 31st.....

[Paul SF]

If that is indeed the Yanks' Opening Day rotation, I'll be quite a happy little Red Sock.

[Rob SF]

Yes Paul, but I am unsure if he wold have been off the books by then or not. I really do not know the status of his contract with the Yanks. But this could allow for a mid season move after Santana/Willis as has been discussed.

SF may be more on target with the "personality/salary dump."

[Rob SF]

The personality is a little of what NY was asking for. Randy was a glare at the umpires for not getting a call. The problem is when you act that way and do not perform up to the level that was expected.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Well Paul if Pineiro is your closer, I will be quite the "Happy Little" Yankee.

[dc]

i'll say it again...i smell a big trade coming...watch out sf's...this one may steal the dm thunder...

[Rotizzle Gizzle]

A big trade for who? LeBron James? Get a grip.

[SF]

LeBron James?! Where will the Yankees play him?

Maybe Jeter will stubbornly refuse to move spots and force another great player to move out of position... ;-)

[Rotizzle Gizzle]

I was thinking he could be the wax distributor at the Ron Guidry Mustache Maintenance Station. You know, since they already signed up Dougie Myunjknckdnklsnbvjkdlsjv to platoon at managing the pension fund and Pride Power Pinstripes 529 college savings plan.

[dc]

i see you're joking sf, so i'll ignore the jeter-bash for what it is [yawn]...this is where i'd normally insert my "veritek is a broken down girly-fighter, sucker-puncher" insult [another yawn]....rg, i have a grip, keep your head in the sand my friend, the yanks are stockpiling prospects for a big trade...you know they don't have the patience for the younger unproven guys...if lebron can help, don't underestimate the yanks to be able to go out and get him, and steve nash...

[Triskaidekaphobia]

This team is a 90 plus win team with the current rotation. Remember the offense can win games, despite a questionable 4 and 5 starter. Sox fans should concern themselves more with their own issues like finalizing JD's contract, finding a closer and having quite possibly the 3rd best offense in the AL East.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Just this on Alberto Gonzalez...They have him as the 13th ranked prospect in Yankees system and a 8C = Solid regular/50% chance of reaching potential.

Strengths: Athleticism/speed. Contact/BA ability. Plate discipline. Plus range. Soft/quick hands
Weaknesses: Hitting for power. Average arm strength
Comments: With plus range and soft hands, he makes both the routine and spectacular play. Despite good speed, he isn't one to steal bases. Makes consistent contact with inside/out swing, so should hit for BA, but will need to draw more walks as power will remain non-existent.

[Russell]

Yea, I'm not sure how much I like this move either. But I do know that the Yankees dumped $18 million dollars and acquired a decent reliever, 2 pitching prospects and a young SS with an above average bat and fielding... Johnson was gone at the end of this year anyway, anyone telling me that they wouldn't take 5 less wins (if the Yanks dont get Clemens) and use a platoon of pitchers?

[thetradingspot]

its not a bad trade at all. very nice salary dump, a decent much needed reliever especially with how Torre abuses the pen now, 2 more prospects. and a SS who will eventually be a utility infielder with great fielding, and an average bat (dont know why he was included but whatever more youth ill take it).

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

this is a good move. i would have preferred linebrink, but randy might have held firm on going to arizona.

now i just need to wait until the P-Unit passes a physical before i get too excited.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

this houston writer is saying that it will be 2 teams chasing after the services of roger clemens. guess who.

(hint: not houston)

http://tinyurl.com/udkj2

i am sick of this stuff already.

[Brad]

The real comparison must be made between the trade of Nick Johnson, Juan Rivera, Brad Halsey, Dioner Navarro and $10+ million dollars for these four players from Arizona. Essentially, that's all it boils down to.
I guess, if you want to count Randy's contributions to the final standings of the Yankees the last two years, and be happy about it, you could do that. In the end, it's come down to Cashman fixing what he feels was a bad mistake on the organization's half in the first place.
If you look at what the Yankees gave up for the Unit, and what they're getting back after being no better for time spent, it's a solution to an earlier mistake, not a good deal.
A good deal would have been to never get involved with RJ (just like I don't want Clemens back in the AL East), and keep the prospects you had to begin with.
Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.
On the physical side - has anyone heard (other than RJ saying that he felt good) what the chances are he actually passes the physical.
And until the Yankees actually make a trade for a pitcher, the real value of this transaction can't be realized. If that trade never takes place, this is a questionable thing for NY to do for this year anyhow. Unless they feel that Karstens or Rasner is just as good, or some combo of them can replace his production, this move isn't a great idea.
Take it from a guy that sat through last year's Boston rotation, trading away what you think isn't a big deal isn't always the best idea.

[Rob (Middletown, CT)]

There is an element of risk in any trade. It's possible that RJ rebounds in '07 and the Yanks struggle to fill his spot in the rotation, whilst the players the Yanks get in return end up contributing nothing.

Even if that (the worst-case scenario) is the case, it's a short-term downside.

I do not think RJ will pitcher particularly well next year. I figure there is at least some small chance that one of the guys in this trade might contribute something of value (that's whatcha call low expectations, folks). Finally, I think the Yankees are well-positioned to fill out their rotation w/o RJ. I won't be so arrogant as to assert that the Yankees have a "surplus of pitching" or any such nonsense, but I think they will be able to muster up 4-5 capable major-league starters at any given time next year. And that's all I can really ask for.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Love the Rocket, sick of the drama too though. Let's rock with what we have for now. Pavano and Igawa will be the 4-5 and if that doesn't work make a trade before July 31st. I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised with Pavano....have some faith...

[SF]

but I think they will be able to muster up 4-5 capable major-league starters at any given time next year. And that's all I can really ask for.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because it applies to the team I root for as well, but our teams, with their budgets, should be able to do better than just mustering up 4-5 "capable" starters. If that's all you ask for, then you don't ask for much from your front office. At worse, we should expect 4-5 slightly more than capable starters, as long as injuries don't take a strong hold of a team. At that point, it's literally a crapshoot (see the Sox last year).

Maybe I am just splitting hairs semantically, though.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

It's a double edged sword for the Yankees. If they "buy" 5 front line starters we are the evil empire. If we do what most of baseball does and search for a 4/5 in spring training our front office is falling short. Who knows if Unit is healthy and even if he was how effective will he be? Plus you got something for him, when he walked after this season what would we have?

[Andrew]

Cashman has undoubtedly been among, if not the, most effective GM this offseason, at least on paper. Remember that he didn't really have power until the 2006 season, and many of his signings were direct orders from the Boss himself, or at least his Tampa conglomerate.

Getting rid of Sheffield, Wright, and Johnson (withOUT paying much of their salaries) for a boatload of legit prospects, signing Mussina to an absolute steal of a deal (arguably the best signing this offseason), and getting Pettitte to a short-term contract.

If you told me Cashman was going to do that all in one year, I probably would have told you to please, stop dropping acid and come back to reality. But now the reality is that Cashman is, seriously, one heck of a GM.

[SF]

It's a double edged sword for the Yankees. If they "buy" 5 front line starters we are the evil empire.

Maybe so, but I am looking at it exclusive of name-calling. Teams like the Sox and Yankees, with between $3.8M-$5.2M per 40-man roster spot (that's the current average for our two teams) should be able to do better than cobble together a back-end (#4/#5 starters) of a rotation from 4 or 5 farmhands and unknowns, one would think. It could work out, that's for sure. And I know that MLB is thin on starting talent, but still, wouldn't we all be reasonable to expect more, considering the resources. I am not saying that every spot should be filled with supreme talent, but rather that total vacancies in the lineup should be troubling. With the Sox, how can they be spending $150M+ at the moment and still not have a proven closer or even a formerly-proven closer in the mix? (Papelbon excluded for the moment). It cuts both ways; I am not trying to pick on the Yanks here. It's interesting (though not necessarily shocking) to me that our two clubs can spend like they do and still have big holes in their makeup.

(Again, forget about injuries to a staff - it's nearly impossible to have 7 quality starters ready in case guys go down. That's not the depth I am thinking about.)

[Nick-YF]

Brad, I agree with everything you just wrote.

[SF]

Remember that he didn't really have power until the 2006 season, and many of his signings were direct orders from the Boss himself, or at least his Tampa conglomerate.

This is another one of those arguments that is always moving around. First, Cashman is a great GM - look at all those titles! Then he's not a great GM because, well, it's not that he isn't a great GM it's rather that it's impossible to prove that he's not a great GM because Florida has all the power. Then he's a great GM because he's apparently been given the power, and look at what he's done! Cashman is immunized this way. That's nice for him, I suppose.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Point taken SF, but why are Pavano and Igawa question marks in your eyes? They have 5 SP's, plus Hughes, Sanchez, Kennedy, Clippard not that far off. Maybe my pinstripe colored glasses are in the way but I don't see this as a hole.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

I think the boys in Queens would kill to have the SP issues the Yankees have.

Never Waivered, Ca$hmoney is the man.

[SF]

but why are Pavano and Igawa question marks in your eyes?

Jeez, do I have to write anything about Pavano?! I think I'll leave him to Nick, who seems to have a healthy obsession with Pavano's performance and trustworthiness.

As for Igawa, I guess he's a question mark in the same way Dice-K is one, or a hot prospect might be one. And with Kei, he's a lesser prospect than Dice-K (who, to me, qualifies as a ?). So to me, that's a question mark. Is that too wacky?

[Andrew]

Who said Cashman was a great GM because of the titles? I've heard most of the credit (deservedly or not) going towards Torre. Cashman isn't immunized, now he actually is doing what he feels best, every move he makes will reflect back on him. Not George, not Tampa, him. Please tell me when such a great move was made by the Yankees before the Bobby Abreu trade. Or when the Yankees ever made such a drastic change (for the better) in their offseason tendencies.

My view is that now that Cashman actually does have power to do whatever he wants with the organization, he instantly makes it better. Remember how the Yankee farm system was one of the worst in the majors? Dioner Navarro the Yankee's top prospect? Now someone even ranked it sixth. I'll take the recent history, and the circumstances, and say that Cashman is most definitely one of the better GMs out there.

[SF]

I think the boys in Queens would kill to have the SP issues the Yankees have.

By May, they may be envying the Royals...

[Triskaidekaphobia]

What you will actually get from Pavano or Igawa is an unknown, fine. But to me a question mark is a hole....There's no hole.

Is it opening day yet?

[SF]

Hey, I am not saying that this offseason doesn't represent a change in the organization's tendencies, but who do you think is telling Cashman what to spend? This is a symbiotic relationship, and a complex one. It's probably never been all Tampa, and it's probably not all Cashman now, either. To think that the financial advisors of the team aren't giving Cashman parameters is quite unrealistic. He's done a very good job, it would appear, fulfilling moves within these parameters, and even as an SF it's ok to admit he's been shrewd and smart. But he doesn't work in a vacuum. So no pretending.

As for other good pickups by the Yankees pre-Abreu, there weren't any that come to mind? That's amazing, considering the team has won like 10 straight divisions or something. Surely he's done something right that didn't emanate from the twisted mind of the Boss? Do you think Steinbrenner did all the legwork obtaining Wang, spending countless hours discussing with scouts his experience of local Taiwanese cuisine?

[Nick-YF]

Pavano, Pavano. What are we going to do with you, ya big lug?

There was an interesting article at the Hardball Times a little while ago about the average ERA's of starters according to their positions in the rotation. What it revealed is that the average #4 and #5 is awful, so perhaps the Yanks' rotation issues aren't so dire?

[SF]

Pavano's Yankees stint should be the Wikipedia definition of a "hole". If we put up a YFSF poll, "Carl Pavano: Question Mark or Not Question Mark", I think I know what would get more votes. Unless by "Not Question Mark" you mean that you just know that he's going to pull his left buttock muscle driving his Subaru Brat into a tree somewhere.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

re: high payroll/question marks in rotations

the only thing that i would mention, sf, is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of solid pitching out there. virtually none were available as free agents this off season, and few decent pitchers are made available via trade (at a reasonable asking price anyway, further testament to the high demand and low availability).

holes in the lineup? yeah, that is less excusable with the money these 2 teams have at their disposal.

the pitching situation is slow-going. i can wait until they see some ripe, low-hanging fruit to pluck.

i'd rather my team sit on what they have if the other option is trading away youth for another RJ. (unless injuries etc. make such a move the only option.)

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

"Is it opening day yet?"

amen. it feels like spring here today. this is killing me.

[Lar]

Russell - five less wins is a lot, when it might be the difference between in the playoffs and sitting at home..

[Nick-YF]

always the left buttock, SF, always.

[SF]

What it revealed is that the average #4 and #5 is awful, so perhaps the Yanks' rotation issues aren't so dire?

That's a good point. I read somewhere at SoSH that the closer position is comparable; that is - most teams with ninth inning leads win games at a certain historical rate, regardless of the quality of their closer. Lending credence to the idea that not having a stud closer is perhaps immeasurably less valuable than having an average or below-average closer. Which might explain why the Sox have decided that, at least for the month of January, they don't need one.

But I am not sure I believe that either.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

i promise that i am not trying to start a poo-flinging debacle, but the other day i posted a tongue-in-cheek phony quote supposedly given by theo epsteinbrenner, touting pineiro.

i just thought that this was kind of funny. it's from the herald piece on pineiro:

“Joel was really at the top of the list,” Hoyer said.

wasn't cordero (and gagne) really at the top of that list?

i'm sure that there will be similar quotes about alberto gonzalez etc., and when they spew forth, feel free to bring them to my attention. i appreciate these things, no matter who says them.

[SF]

"Coming from Behind: Patterns of Scoring and Relation to Winning

By David W. Smith"

is the article at www.retrosheet.org (in PDF format), in the "Research" category. It examines leads held and blown late in games over the last 73 years, and the statistical occurrences of these situations, closer-independent. It's very interesting.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Yeah but Wikipedia might want to hold off on that annointment until we see Joel close a few games.

As for the poll I am agreeing with you Pavano = unknown, but not hole.

[Nick-YF]

SF, I admire such statistical analysis, but there's a part of me that believes that the Yanks aren't a dynasty with anyone less than Mo in the closing position.

[SF]

“Joel was really at the top of the list” Hoyer said

You neglect to contextualize. The list that Hoyer was referring to was the Red Sox' "List of Players Whose Last Names Start with the Letters P-I-N". So it makes sense that way.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

i apologize, sf. i must have skimmed that line.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

"...the Yanks aren't a dynasty with anyone less than Mo in the closing position."

word. there will be no replacing that man when the sad and inevitable time comes.

[SF]

Agreed, YFiB and Nick, which is where my skepticism about not having a closer comes from. But it's still a very interesting article.

[Seth]

I tend to think the number 4 -5 starter mattering slightly less is accurate based on those are the days you are more likely to have a backup catcher and maybe another starter or two resting. Wright and Chacon was what we had last year and Igawa and Pavano do not seem like a step down if they do what they are capable of doing. Unkowns, yea of course. But I am by no means disappointed that I have an opening day rotation of Pettitte, Igawa, Pavano over RJ, Chacon, Wright. On top of the having the potential of a karstens, rasner, proctor with the ability to step up if need be.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

sanchez should be ready at some point this year as well, seth.

for january, we're set up pretty well. (who knows how i'll feel come june, but for now i'm okay with this.)

[Brad]

But now the reality is that Cashman is, seriously, one heck of a GM.
_____________________

Again, let's see what happens. In reality, Cashman has traded away two legit guys in the rotation, and what many of you said was the most feared bat in the AL when healthy. He got prospects in return, and that's it.
If NY crashes and burns this year, will the praise of this new "addition by subtraction" philosophy still going to hold water?
I'm just saying that Cashman has done some pretty interesting things this offseason that could undoubtedly come back and bite him. What if Sheff has another MVP year like two years ago? What if Wright wins 15 games while NY struggles with Karstens getting hammered?
I'm just saying that being called "one heck of a GM" before anyone takes the field is more than slightly too soon.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

"If NY crashes and burns this year, will the praise of this new "addition by subtraction" philosophy still going to hold water?"

yes. it won't be ca$hman's fault.

...it will surely be alex rodriguez's.

[Seth]

Brad you are giving Cashman a lose lose situation. He has already aquired Abreu and won the division last year with his moves. (I can think of some GMs who did not do the same last year) We won the divison with 2 power outfielders going down and crap pitching from our 2,4,5 (RJ, Chacon, Wright) Did the Angels have any worse of a season because they cut Jeff Weaver and then he went on to win a world series. Actions that happen after matter little. Cashman status should be based on how the team performs (division champs in 2006), and how the prospects turn out or turn into.

[Brad]

On another note: Given the money both of our respective GM's bring to the table, neither can hardly be called into mensa meetings based on their decisions. When you build playoff teams year in and year out with Twins or A's money, well, then credit should be showered.
Our GM's have an endless supply of cash, an endless supply of scouts, an endless supply of assistants and other resources that help them make their hundred million dollar signings. When either guy trades away all-stars for prospects while picking up part of the salaries, it can't be considered a brilliant move.

[Paul SF]

Absent a trade later this offseason, is it possible that Cashamn quietly is doing this year what the Sox FO said they were doing last year -- taking a year off, so to speak. Staying competitive, sure, and this is a competitive team, but building up the system, waiting for better free agents, letting top prospects develop and then using that to build a better dynasty for the years to come.

[Brad]

Seth, I'm hardly giving him any situation. I clearly said that the moves "could" bite him. Nowhere did I say they definitely would. It could work out to be great, or it could be a terrible move. All I'm saying is that it's too soon to pass the keys to the city for the moves. It is highly possible that it turns out bad for him for at least this year.
You don't agree?

[Seth]

Last year the sox took off? Is that what giving up two prospects for a backup catcher is?

[DAW]

While I agree with your basic premise, brad, you do paint a very rosy picture of what cash traded: two legit starters, and the most feared bat in the AL when healthy. A more accurate assessment would be: a 43 year old pitcher recovering from back surgery; an oft injured starter who could barely give you 5 inn a start, and a 39 yr old hitter whose swing is all about his wrists coming back from a serious wrist injury.

[Paul SF]

I think we've beaten that trade to death, Seth. I didn't like it at the time. Epstein says it was a mistake, so I don't see the point there. The Sox clearly went into last season at least intimating that making the playoffs -- while always a goal -- would have been something of a bonus.

[Paul SF]

FWIW, I wonder how those rates differ in the playoffs. If a closer like Mo can give you a save rate of, say 85 percent versus 75 percent, that becomes much more important over 10 games than over 162. That additional game or two could be the difference in a series.

[DAW]

" that becomes much more important over 10 games than over 162. That additional game or two could be the difference in a series."

Well said. Spot on.

[DAW]

". The Sox clearly went into last season at least intimating that making the playoffs -- while always a goal -- would have been something of a bonus."

This, however, is hard to buy, in light of the beckett trade.

[Andrew]

If this is a 'year off' for the Yankees, boy would I love to see what a competitive team would be like.

[Seth]

"that becomes much more important over 10 games than over 162. That additional game or two could be the difference in a series."

Agreed. This is also true for postseason starting pitching. Which is why I like Pettitte as the number 3 over RJ.

[Rob (Middletown, CT)]

Regarding SF's point regarding closers and 4th/5th starters, the key difference to me is the postseason. 4th/5th starters are important during the regular season, but far less important during the playoffs. The 5th starter shouldn't pitch at all, except in a blowout. Whereas the closer becomes more important than ever. This is why Mo matters more than [insert back-end starter here].

If you were running a team that was on the playoff bubble... a team for whom simply making the playoffs would be a victory, then one could certainly argue that having a decent back end of the rotation matters more than overpaying for a "proven closer." The Yankees are not that team, however.

The 4th/5th spots in the Yankee rotation will be filled by (barring further FO activity) some combo of:

Igawa
Pavano
Karstens
Rasner
Hughes
Clippard

I chuckled bitterly as I typed Pavano, believe me. I seriously doubt he throws a single major-league inning for the Yanks again, but it's possible, so he's in there. Igawa I think will get a shot, and I'm ok with Karstens/Rasner as the 5th man to open the season.

As the season goes on, Hughes becomes a possibility (Clippard less so, but possible), as does, of course, the Rocket Man. Though I think that if he comes back to the rivalry, he will go back to the Sox.

[Lar]

NY Post said that Clemens didn't like RJ, and now with RJ gone, it'll be shocking (to them, I guess) if Clemens doesn't come back.

I'll believe it when I see it, but ya, as long as you make the playoffs, 4-5 doesn't matter so much. Unless your season is on the line and you're forced to put up Jaret Wright..

[Brad]

brad, you do paint a very rosy picture of what cash traded:
_____________________________

There's nothing rosy about it, Andrews. Did he trade away two starters who were in the Yankee rotation last year? Check. Did he trade away a big bat. Check. Did he get nothing more than prospects in return, while still paying partial salaries in return? Check. Listen, we could beat this to death over the status of all the players involved, but for now it's nothing more than bias opinions. If we break it down to the facts, remove the bias, it is what it is. Trading away ML players for prospects. It's not a bad thing to do for any organization, but ones like NY and Boston do NOT have the patience to wait and see what works out in the end. Maybe you do, but most don't. Logically, if you're hoping that some combo of Karstens and Rasner are going to win 17 or 20 games in NY next year, I think it's a big stretch. Neither is that good, but should benefit from a Sheffield-less offense, which brings me to my next point. If X person is going to call that Sheffield deal a good one, it's another stretch. When healthy, Sheffield is a great hitter with enormous HR and RBI potential. That deal was made solely to keep him out of Boston, which is exactly where he would have run to for the cash. My two cents worth is that Cashman did not WANT to trade away a plate monster like GS for prospects, so calling a good deal before we see how the numbers pile up is premature.
I'm not saying that it's bad or good for now, but when you look at what's been lost in comparison to what's been gained, I don't see the advantage to the Yankees. It may turn out that way if a trade does indeed take place, but until that time, it's totally up in the air. The soup to nuts version is that the Yankees have lost 350 IP and 30 or so wins from their rotation, and what probably projects to 25 or so HR and 100RBI from the lineup. In return, they've gotten absolutely zero wins, zero HR, and zero RBI in return. It's hard to call it a good deal when you look at the numbers.
Will it work out? I don't know. But I do know that Cashman has work to do. As a Red Sox fan, that Rotation has not looked that bad since, well, I can't remember when.
Nobody will be happier than me if this is what they show up to Florida with.

[Nick from Washington Heights]

But, Brad, Sheff played less than a month for the Yanks last year. You have to contextualize that trade. There was no room for him on the team. You can't really say that trading Sheff will prove regrettable. You can say that about the Unit trade if the rotation is injury-riddled and mediocre.

[Nick from Washington Heights]

my secret identity revealed again!

[Lar]

Also, the money for Wright's deal is how much it would've costed the Yanks to drop him. So in some respect, the prospects were "free"..

It's actually pretty amazing, in retrospect, that we still won 97 games missing Matsui and Sheff. And still won 17 games for a terrible RJ.

And if trading RJ brings Clemens (at the very least, the money to bring Clemens) then the prospects are "free" too!

I guess it depends on how you want to look at it..

[Brad]

Nick. I understand what you're saying, but you have to assume that Sheffield will be at least 70% of his normal self. Which equates into a pretty good player. If he doesn't play at all and puts up zero numbers, then you can call the trade a great one, because that's exactly what you're getting out of prospects.
If Sheffield plays regularly, he's a force to be reckoned with. Period. I'm trying to not look at this in a Red Sox V. Yankees point of view, but rather a logical sense. If Sheffield is back to 100%, and Abreu goes back to his Philly ways, this deal is a bad one.

[Brad]

my secret identity revealed again!

___________________________________

Yeah, sometimes I think of using that as a means of pointing out your differing opinions when you need to offer legitimate argument, but then I fear you'd get ahold of my SoSH name...hahahahaah.

[Nick-YF]

"Abreu goes back to his Philly ways, this deal is a bad one."

I'll take the Philly version of Abreu. It's pretty good even if certain Philly fans didn't appreciate it.

[Andrew]

I seriously don't think you can call the Sheffield trade bad at all. There was absolutely no place on the team for him. He can't play first base, and he's not much of an outfielder. Who would be benched for him to play? Matsui? Abreu? Giambi? When would Melky ever get to play?

There was absolutely no room for Sheffield on the team once the Yanks traded for Abreu. Given their position, that the Yankees got the Tigers' top pitching prospect and two lower-level but highly touted relief prospects, without paying any of Sheffield's salary is amazing to me. That was probably my favorite deal of the three. Jaret Wright's coming in close second because even if someone does worse in the #4 spot, at least they'll be replaced. Much better than Wright giving 5 innings of agonizing baseball day in and day out.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

30 Wins lost from their rotation??

You really like Jaret Wright Huh? Losing Jaret Wright is a loss?? Please that guy did more harm then good. 5 Innings McGee, Good Riddance. Our bullpen thanks him for going elsewhere.

The same folks that are crticizing this move are the same folks that would have questioned Unit's effectiveness. "He's not a #1, he's washed Up." You can't have it both ways.

"I don't know. But I do know that Cashman has work to do."

You have some set...Cashman has assembled an All-Star at every position except 1B. He has built up a glaring weakness (the Bullpen) and filled the farm system with talent.

Yes, you have a MUCH better staff on paper. BUT (and here comes the dead horse) no closer and quite possibly the 3rd best offense in the AL East.

And your right the Sheffield deal wasn't a good one it was a GREAT one. Sheff, Unit, Kevin Brown and so on and so on all the cancers are gone. What made the sox so darn good in 2004 was Chemistry. What made the Yankees so good in 1998 was Chemistry. Ask the NY Giants about pure talent. Or call the Tuna and ask him how TO's talent is benefiting his team. Remember the most talented has not always won the WS over the past few seasons. 2003 the Yankees were the favorites, 2004 Cardinals were the favorite (Just ask Dennis Leary who did a commercial on FOX saying "It doesn't matter who wins the AL, nobody is beating the Cards") 2006 I was in Vegas and I know the Cards weren't even CLOSE to being the favorites and how did that turn out?

[DAW]

brad, you're completely overlooking the health issues. RJ & GS aren't the players they were even a year ago. Both are coming back from serious injuries at an age where complete recovery is anything but a sure thing. Last year was one of the few seasons in Wright's career when he didn't spend time on the DL. All are significant question marks.

You're right when you say only time will tell, but with these moves, the yanks gain a flexibility they haven't had for years.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

"If [sheffield] doesn't play at all and puts up zero numbers, then you can call the trade a great one, because that's exactly what you're getting out of prospects."

sanchez will potentially pitch in the bigs this year. he's a legit prospect. if not this year, than '08. if not with the yankees, he'll be traded for someone else.

...there will be some return on the trade, it is just too soon to tell how much it will effect the yankees and when.

i'm splitting hairs.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Blame A-Rod.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

amen.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

from the latest klapisch article at espn.com:

Whatever the reason, Johnson was unhappy enough to look daggers at Johnny Damon last August when the outfielder tried to rally the slumping Yankees. In the middle of the clubhouse, Damon shouted to the whole team, "Come on, you [expletive]. Wake up!" From across the room, Johnson stared coldly, so unnerving Damon that he later asked a club official, "Did I do something wrong?"

...(I)t's clear no one will miss him. One employee said, "Randy was the kind of guy who, if you asked him, 'How's it going?' he'd stare you down and say, 'What do you mean by that?' He was the most socially awkward person I ever met around here."

sounds like a cool guy to hang out with for 8-9 months. "the most socially awkward person..."?!? matsui's "relieving himself" in the on deck circle, you've got rodriguez and his psychological baggage, gary sheffield's pity parties, george steinbrenner, etc.

...and RJ is the sociopath of the group.

good riddance.

[DAW]

"matsui's "relieving himself" in the on deck circle"

Say what? I missed this one. Please, YFIB, fill me in...

[Seth]

"There's nothing rosy about it, Andrews. Did he trade away two starters who were in the Yankee rotation last year? Check. Did he trade away a big bat. Check"

He gets Pettite and Igawa. He gets Abreu. Lineup and pitching remain basically the same as last year. And he gets a bunch of prospects to boot.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

heh.

not literally. hideki has a well publicized and enthusiastic appreciation for adult "reading" and video materials. supposedly he is a "collector" and shares his vast library of such things with the hoardes of reporters that follow him around.

[Lar]

Abreu contributed more to the Yanks offense last year than Shef. Granted, Sheff is probably a whole lot scarier.. but hopefully Abreu is finding his 25-30HR stroke again. If nothing else, he keeps leading the league in balls per plate appearance, and that's fine by me..

[DAW]

YFIB, thanks.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Is it truly awful being a YFIB? I have been a visitor many times, but never a full time resident and it was awful! Wearing my Yankee hat through town was like....well I can't think of any PC comparisons, but you get it....

[Brad]

Trisk: if you stick your hand on the range, expect it to be burnt. I know it's bad, but that's the way it is.