« Murderers Blow It: Game II Recap | Main | Scorec-art »

Thursday, October 05, 2006


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

And now I'm definetly going to assume we're winning this series. A Boston fan jumping on the fact the Yankees lost? Wait a second, how's the off season treating you?

I'm not jumping on the Yankee loss. I'm jumping on Yankee fans jumping on the Yankee loss. Regardless of how our offseason's treating us, 2004's apparently still not wearing too well on you guys...

Heh, amusing enough, but Mystique and Aura weren't killed by the Red Sox. Your perp is clearly Luis Gonzalez. The fact that the Red Sox still got their hearts broken one final time speaks to their overall choke-osity. Or choke-larity, if you prefer, Your Honor.

Anyway, I would just like to ask that whoever leaked my grand jury testimony be put in a cell very close to the BALCO reporters.

And yes, just to clarify - the 2001 World Series loss hurt and meant 10 times more than the 2004 ALCS loss. It was a walk-off with the greatest closer of all time on the mound, and game 7 of the LCS was a blowout.

I was miserable for a week after '01; I was just numb for a few hours after '04.

Plus, statisically, '04 had to happen SOMETIME. Not even the Red Sox were so inept as to choke again and again and again.

this has little to do with "the greatest choke in the history of recorded organized athletics", as much as it has to do with a certain fist pump action. what's the first pump stand for again?

i still don't buy the "01 hurt more" story. saint mo was on the mound for 3 of the 4 "most embarassing moments in the history of history."

Oh please. What a ridiculous thread.

To the extent that I lost my "swagger" as a fan, it was the Angels in 2002 that did it.

You hold on to 2004, SF, you hold on tight.

From the vault (so long as we're piling on):

"Designed to capture ambition, courage, passion and confidence, Avon said Jeter was involved throughout the development process. The fragrance is a blend of crushed leaves, black pepper, chilled grapefruit, rhubarb, lavender, spearmint, bamboo, driftwood and oak moss."


"I hit solid, with an accelerated bat head."

Rob, this was posted by Paul, not me, but I think this post is pretty hysterical and so am happy to take a bullet for my esteemed co-blogger. I'd of course rather be an active contributor to a game thread involving the Sox at the moment, but you gotta give Paul some credit for bringing the Sox back into focus.

It was one game yesterday, which is why it's so funny: people around these parts (again, I live in NYC) are already turning the rifles on each other. It ain't pretty, and the team doesn't deserve it. The Yankees can still win it all, which seems to be a fact lost on many YFs (not so many at this site as elsewhere, to be frank - we've got smart commenters at YFSF) amidst yesterday's frustration.

It's really rather sad and petty, but if you enjoy it, good for you. Enjoy the offseason.

Aw, Rob, come on. There have been plenty of times when you guys have had a little fun at our expense, and turnabout is fair play. Chill, baby!

Your Honor:

Could it be that Aura and Mystique just happened to have unbreakable plans yesterday afternoon? The scheduling was last minute. And, you know, the Tigers aren't the Rangers. It's nice to sweep the LDS, but the Yanks didn't do it in 1996, 2000, 2001, 2003, or 2004, though they won it each time.

Defense requests an adjournment through the weekend.

Don't you mean "they did it with Speed, they did it with Power and they did it with Heinz 57 Ketchup!"

BTW it's now 2006 just 2 years later, how many of those players from that magical 2004 season are still with the team? Out of the 25 members of the post season roster, how many are still with the Sox? How many more do you expect to lose this year?

I have to say that the '01 loss definitely stung more than the '04 collapse.

They were a strike away from winning the World Series.

To be that close to the ultimate goal and have that slip through your fingers hurts.

I had my doubts about the '04 team. I didn't expect them to win it all, where as I fully expected the '01 team to finish off the the D-Backs. I had even apologized in advance for the certain celebratory noise as the little lady went off to bed as the bottom of the 9th got under way.

That one stung.

'04 was more of a nuisance. Mostly because I knew I'd have to sit through endless recappings for years to come.

...Like this one.

It was a big disappointment, but it didn't hurt.

This year's story isn't over.

Perhaps you'll find that the rumours of Aura & Mystique's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

Go Yanks.

As a YF, 04 hurted a lot more than 01. I mean, 01 we had to steal 2 games from them, so while going in 3-2 and losing it so badly was bad, it's hard to say they didn't do their best against a very dominating Curt and Randy.

04, just wtf. Yes, someone has to lose in an 3-0 eventually, and yes, maybe BoSox had a better team that year.. but wow, talk about looking at the World Series (with as much certainty as you can have it) and then realize you lost.. that's just rough.

Hi All,

We haven't gone away. Couldn't make the rescheduled game yesterday, we had to work. Maybe you'll remember our most recent appearance at Fenway park from August 18th to August 21st.

See ya in Detroit.

As much as yesterday annoyed me, your post was pretty hysterical, Paul. We YFs need therapy.

Looks like the post struck something of a nerve.

I can see how 01 would hurt more than 04, simply because the collapse in 2001 was swifter and in a more important game (last game of the World Series, versus four games in the LCS). Nevertheless, Mystique and Aura were certainly there in all their vain, arrogant entitlement-riddled glory in 2003 and 2004. Since the unthinkable collapse in 04, I've seen a ton of Yankee fans become downright sf-like in their neurotic reactions to every win and loss in crucial situations. The treatment a Game 2 loss that merely tied a best of five series at 1 apiece as if it heralded the demise of the 2006 Yankees certainly struck me as a reaction we would never have seen before 2004...

Gimme a break. Yankee fans love their history. The uniform, the stadium, the team does stand for something special and unique. That doesn't make them invincible. And it doesn't mean the fans are not occasionally discouraged. Certainly, most had lost hope after the first 2 games of the WS in 96. Then came Leyritz. So I think this is just bullshit.

Moreover, I have a hard time feeling at all bad about 2001 or even 2003. What the team accomplished in 2001, after the worst month in the history of NY, was truly wonderful. They gave fans and everyone else in the city an amazing gift. A fluke hit from Gonzalez hardly erases that. Similarly, the incredible victory over the Sox in 2003 was so sweet that watching the Marlins celebrate on the Yankee infield was more surreal than upsetting. In other words, both years brought great joy. I will always look back fondly on both campaigns.

Paul, what does the SF stand for? Sigmund Freud? There are just as many neurotic Yankee fans as there are neurotic Sox fans. And if you weren't hearing the neurotic Yankee fans before 2004, then you just weren't paying attention, or listening to Mike and Mad Dog on WFAN. So spare us your schadenfreude, this series ain't over by any means. All I'm getting out of this is that it appears Sox fans enjoy watching the Yankees lose more than they enjoy watching the Sox win. After all the Yankees lose a lot more often than the Sox win.

You have to be in it to lose it! =)

Testy, testy, my YF friends!

I like how YF suddenly looks back at Yankee failures with some sense of "joy", even though last year when the Sox were eliminated by Chicago and I posted an optimistic, unbitter ode to the season he questioned me heavily. YF is again all over the place with his principles, they fit the moment and nothing else. That's the bullshit here, not Paul's rather humorous material.

As for us SFs caring more about Yankee losses than Sox wins, that's a non-sequitir. The Sox have been eliminate: there is nobody to root for other than the team playing the Yanks. I thought we had gone through that already.

"Who killed Aura and Mystique?" ESPN. They manufactured them. Then they killed them. Now they are snorting their ashes with Tommy Lasorda commercials actively rooting against their meal ticket. Okay, the commercial is a little funny, just because Lasorda is such a goof, but for funny, it's not by much.

Personally, 2001 hurt more than 2004 for several reasons.

First was the "What you hear is the sense of inevitability" thing with Mo, invincible Mo, giving it up to Gonzalez. Yankees lose? In the World Series? Unpossible. Reality came back around to remind me that victories mean nothing without perspective. I remember exactly where I was, exactly what I was doing, and exactly what the reaction was of every non-Yankee fan (actually everyone in that circumstance). Kennedy-esque, without the grassy knoll. What, still too soon?

Second was the fact that It was fucking ARIZONA. You play cactus league games there, they ain't supposed to have no major-league team.

Third was that Boston beating New York in 2004 stung, and stung bad, bud I knew/know too many excellent baseball fans that happened to be Sox fans to begrudge them a well-earned victory.

" the collapse in 2001"

2001 was hardly a collapse = we lost, at the end, because of a throwing error and a bloop single. That's baseball, right? This game can be such a fickle bitch sometimes.

As far as all the posts yesterday, and the nerve that was touched by this silly thread - the root of all of it is the fact that we have a 43 yr old with a serious back injury pitching tonight, and Jaret Wright pitching tomorrow. Could get ugly.
Lineups rarely win championships - we all know pitching does.

No matter what happens, I'll warm my winter nights with this updated ending to a classic baseball ode:

...the seats atop the Monster:deathly quiet, mum's the word-

There is no joy in Beantown:

The Sox finished in Third...

See, I guess I'm atypical. 2001 was a shock, but it didn't HURT. I was in total disbelief as it happened (Mo? Fail?), but it didn't pain me. It was so flukish, and hey, they had a really inspiring post-season run and were awfully lucky to even BE in game 7 of the world series.

2002 is the one that really shook me. That team should have won the WS. But the Angels just kicked their asses. That's when vulnerability crept into my psyche.

2003 reinforced the vulnerability, given that I honestly felt that the 2003 Red Sox were the better team and should have won (but for Grady), and further that the Yanks lost the WS to the Marlins (!!) that year.

2004 sucked horribly, and hurt, but didn't really change my outlook on the Yanks in the playoffs. I knew the Yanks were vulnerable by that point (and, going into the ALCS, again felt Boston was the better team). The result sucked so bad in large part because of the way it happened. Had Boston won a see-saw battle, I wouldn't have been happy, but it would've been in line with my expectations. They didn't have the pitching.

They still don't, but it's better. So they've got a real good shot this year. But 2002 reminds me that ALDS's are real crapshoots. The 2002 Yanks could really pitch, but a couple of bad games = go home.

Speaking of Lasorda, has everyone heard the tapes of him on the mound in the '78 series, and discussing Kingman's 8 RBI day against the Dodgers? Hilarious!

I'll argue that with the current Yankee lineup, it will automatically become one of the biggest embarrassments in sports if they manage to lose any of the three series. I mean, in 2004 I think the Sox had a better team, so I can't really count that, but if the Yanks manage to blow it this year, holy cow, that's never going away. With the amount of money, all-stars and a full MLB managerial coaching staff on hand this year, it would be something special for the rest of the world to witness.
How is it even possible to lose with that lineup now? It's almost like they would have to work at it.

I will say this - If they do lose, does anyone in the free world think Cashman isn't fired immediately?

2001 was hardly a collapse

Then I guess '86 for the sox was barely one either, by an extra passed ball and hit. The goalposts keep moving...

What is your level of respect for Abreu, since he was the only difference in the opening day lineup and yesterdays. I would think at that point you thought Boston had a chance, right?

"How is it even possible to lose with that lineup now? It's almost like they would have to work at it."

Please. If the opposition has strong pitching, you could add Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Gehrig, Sisler in their prime and still lose.

No matter what, Cashman will not be fired.

If the Yankees don't win it all this year, they will have gone 6 years and spent over a billion for a bunch of "division champs" flags. Hoo-ha.

"The goalposts keep moving..."

Nope. I never said '86 was a collapse. Hideous loss is more accurate.

Having Abreu is a dramatic change in the lineup. That little addition of one of the best count workers in the game (with his twenty million dollar pricetag) is a significant one to be sure. There's no sense in dowplaying that lineup to curb the possibility of them losing. It's easily one of the top five of all time, and if it doesn't result in a ring, it's a very hard fall from a very high cliff. Period. If they manage to lose, they deserve to be the laughing stock of baseball and more importantly - considered a modern-day Atlanta Brave-esque organization.

"Please. If the opposition has strong pitching, you could add Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Gehrig, Sisler in their prime and still lose.

No matter what, Cashman will not be fired."

So, what you're saying is that after the addition of Abreu and Lidle it may have been pitching that the Yankees needed, and Cashman passed for yet another hitter?
Yeah, there's no way Steinbrenner fires him for wasting a billion dollars since he's been the GM - and still no ring.

"they will have gone 6 years and spent over a billion for a bunch of "division champs" flags. Hoo-ha."

Oh God, that tired old line of reasoning. Once again, money doesn't buy championships - it merely puts you in a position to win.

Curious to know how much the sox spent in the 88 years between 1918 and 2006. One WS ring. Hmm, lets keep this in the proper perspective...

Ok, Andrews, this is just semantics then. I mean, '86 was a collapse, a choke, a hideous loss, everything you want to term it, I am ok with that. It was an historic collapse. And '01 wasn't that, for sure, but it was coming within a strike of the championship, having several chances to end it, and then having a hit, a throwing error, and another hit end title dreams. 2004 was an historic, three-game collapse, with the home field advantage, with elimination games at the one-strike-to-go-with-the-best-reliever-ever on the mound at the moment of collapse. To me, both qualify as collapses. I would find it presumptuous to tell you and the rest of Yankees fans which one should hurt more: I imagine they hurt differently. I know that '86 hurt more than '78, but then again Bucky-f*cking-Dent hit his homer on my 10th birthday and I will never forgive him, and 2003 was extra-painful because I was by myself in the Oakland airport and had a red-eye to take. I don't look back at any of them with any "joy", like YF, though they are amazing memories that help define me and my fandom. I would (now, only because of 2004) never trade them in, as weird as that sounds.

I'm not buying that 2001 hurt more than 2004 crap for even a second. Those that are saying it are the same YFs that say, "what rivalry?"

Sell crazy some place else, we're all stocked up here.

Curious to know how much the sox spent in the 88 years between 1918 and 2006.

They spent a ton of money. And it was sad, frustrating, sometimes embarrassing, that they never won it all despite the resources. Which is my point. The Sox are not immune from my personal barometer of underachievement despite massive expenditure, and I never said they were. This year they did a not-so-bang-up job at it, and have taken a good deal of heat. Why are the Yankees (and Cashman, Brad might ask) immunized for you?

Cashman became GM in 1998 - by my count he has 3 rings.

Cashman didn't " pass for another hitter". They got BA and CL for next to nothing. (Money, as we all know, to the Yanks, is not an issue) Available pitchers were not worth Phil Hughes and other top prospects

Cashman could kick kittens live on TV and still not get fired.

money doesn't buy championships - it merely puts you in a position to win.

You're right, but spending close to three hundred million a year should guarantee more than it does for this current Yankee team. When you suck up every good FA on the market, have good homegrown guys and the best closer of all time, it shouldn't even be close.

Lockland, I disagree with you, even as a SF.

I understand how being one strike from a World Series with Mo (Mo!) on the mound, and fully expecting a title, suddenly moving to a scenario where the team is coughing it up in grotesque, broken bat fashion might be more painful than an ALCS choke-of-all-chokes. Again, I can't presume to tell someone what should hurt more; that's personal.

To me '86 was way more painful than 2003, there's no contest. I think that's a reasonable comparison.

You think it won't be worth it if Johnson and whomever goes tomorrow spit the bit? You think a quickly aging Steinbrenner cares that Houghs (a prospect nonetheless that got banged in the all star game agaist good hitters) cares about keeping him and losing yet another playoff series?

I don't.

Hughes, I mean.

SF, had we gone up 3 games against the Yankees and then lost it in 4 straight, would you think that would be worse than 86?

I agree though, 86 was worse for me than 2003 only because it was the first time the team tore out my heart and danced a jig on it. By 2003 I was leather.

No, Lockland. I can't imagine a worse scenario than what happened in '86, other than it having been a three run lead, or a four run lead, etc. My brain can't process a worse situation than that one.

OK, let's just take a step back here;

Bashing A-Rod doesn't mean that we're jumping off the ship, or whatever the SF's are implying.

I'm still fully confident that the Yanks will come back and win this series.

Let's stop the pissing contest, because everyone knows that the Sox's stream is week and could use some of that medicine that solves your "going" problems.

Yeah, I just used that metaphor.

"I'm not buying that 2001 hurt more than 2004 crap for even a second. Those that are saying it are the same YFs that say, 'what rivalry?'"

Sorry. This is my opinion.

...And I fully acknowledge the rivalry. Anyone who doesn't feel the energy when these 2 teams play is oblivious.

I just don't see why someone can't fathom the possibility that losing the World Series after being a strike away from victory would hurt more than losing 4 straight in the playoffs.

Is that really that difficult to believe?

Are the same people who hold that opinion the same ones who chant "Yankees Suck" while the Sox are playing the Royals?

Why are the Yankees (and Cashman, Brad might ask) immunized for you?"

They're not immunized. Free of the influence of George and the Tampa guys, I think Cashman did a great job this year. I've ranted and raved about the moves in past years - too numerous to mention here.

I'm not afraid to admit 2004, for me was much worse than 2001.

And Brad - Yanks payroll this year is not 300 million. " shouldn't even be close" - it all depends on your pitching staff, as a whole.


I fully understand your position, and in fact agree with it. I am surprised that some SFs don't get this, considering the easy parallels between '86/'03 and '01 and '04.

You think he did a great job, Andrews, but will he have actually done a great job should the Yankees lose because their pitching staff is underwhelming?

This is just asking for an act of criticism. I thought Theo did a fine job in the offseason. It turns out I was somewhat wrong. He did some things well, some things terribly, and some things we won't know about for a while. It seems to me that you are saying that Cashman won't get that same kind of reassessment, no matter what happens. That's what I mean by immunization.

Is that true or am I misinterpreting?

Brad, I dunno. I think that Cashman is secure; one might even say "made". Yes, the Yankees doing anything but winning the series will be sold as a collapse of unforgiveable proportion by a lot of writers, but I won't consider it such unless New York gets blanked in a few of the games. I don't think there is a Yankee fan on this site that has been overly enamored with New York pitching; it has been a season-long mantra that the Yankees beat opponents with the their bats, not their arms.

I would still rate Mazeroski and the Pirates beating the 60 Yanks as a more embarrasing moment in Yankee history. Considering the era, that Yankee team was a juggernaut.

When you suck up every good FA on the market, have good homegrown guys and the best closer of all time, it shouldn't even be close. Yet, it remains close. Seattle winning 116 games, more than anyone in history, yet doesn't make the series. Atlanta in the playoffs 14 years with exactly one ring to show for it. For all of its numbers, baseball isn't about math at all for me when I look back on it.

Lockland, yeah, 2004 really, really sucked, but 2001 was shocking, stunning, and I felt wronged. I had time to digest the collapse in 04.

SF was right in describing it as "different" kinds of hurt. 2004 felt like watching your beautifully-built but precariously positioned house slowly sliding down a hill. You saw the erosion. You knew it was coming. There was nothing you could do, but insurance would buy you a new house next year. 2001 felt like you were on your way home from a great dinner, about to get laid, and then WHAM! You get T-Boned by a drunk snow-plow driver.

I was having an interesting talk the other day about how Theo is doing/did.

It's easy to say Theo has made a lot of mistakes, but what we decided is that it's not about the GM making bad decisions, it's about the GM simply have a better ratio of decisions that work out vs. decisions that don't work out, in their entire body of work. The problem is passing judgement on short term results, some decisons that are judged as poor now, may still turn out to be good. The period of time in which a GMs actions can really be judged is long.

Question, does Cashman get the same consideration?

This is just a tired thread. The initial post was pretty hilarious, fine, but we've degenerated from there to the usual pointless flame war courtesy SF, who needs to find hypocracy hiding around every corner. The Yanks lost one game. Fine. They could easily lose a playoff series. Despite the money spent. Small sample size. It happens. More likely, they'll win. We'll see.

If they automatically won every single year there wouldn't be much point in watching.

Can we talk about the games now?

If New York misses the playoffs, yes, Cashman will be in jeopardy. Otherwise, no.

" you are saying that Cashman won't get that same kind of reassessment"

I'm sure George and YF's everywhere will reassess their views of Cashman's season if the Yanks fail to win the WS. I can only say that I won't. I stand by my opinion. There were no pitchers available this year worth the cost of Hughes and other top prospects. Johnson's back may end up being the monkeywrench - all the more reason to avoid aging pitchers and hold on to prospects.

Flame war? That I started? What are you talking about, YF? Get a clue. The biggest disagreement here seems to be between some other SFs, not myself, and the bulk of YFs. I actually understand most YFs claims about 2001 vs. 2004 and buy the position. The Cashman stuff is off-topic, but I am curious about what his accountability is, and that's probably for later as the Yankees haven't lost a thing yet.

The only hypocrisy is your proclamation of "joy" over the memories of the Yankees' collapses while you expressed "SHOCK", I think the word was (in all caps, at that), over my, I think the word was "sanguine" (followed by a long missive explaining my emotions) sentiments towards last year's Sox exit. You drop these inconsistent bombs, and then scurry away, only to return to attack ME for some sort of hypocrisy, when all I am doing is asking you for a little consistency. There's no flame war here, just a free-form discussion, sometimes a bit hot, borne out of Paul's funny post. You are really cranky.

I think that this was the first year that Cashman was allowed to do what he thought was necessary. However, a lot of the roster is still the result of George and Co.'s exploit (See: Sheffied, Gary and Johnson, Randy). I'm willing to withhold judgement until the team is "cleansed". After that, whatever happens is on Cash and Cash only.

As dissapointed in yesterday's performance as I was it pales to the joy I feel inside everytime I realize that Chris Berman is not calling any of the Yankee v. Tigers series.

Excellent point, Walein. I was eating a late lunch yesterday watching the Cards/Padres game. It was absolutely brutal listening to him.

Back back back bac ab ba ba ba bac...foul ball.

The part that made me truly want to scream was when Hershiser told an anecdote about Tony Larussa (something about Pujols and how fantastic he is). It was a good little story and Orel explained it as having been told to him before the game when they were all hanging out on the field (BP or something). He doesn't get the period on the sentence before Berman rumbles in "Oh yeah, I heard that one."

steve lyons was particularly awful calling the mets/dodgers game last night.

"glavine can make you look bad even if you're the pitcher and you're not supposed to be able to hit."

that is at least VERY close to an exact quote.

he also went on at great length about how he had the priviledge of getting a peck on the cheek from entertainment tonight's mary hart after she threw out a first pitch years ago.

"she is one classy, classy lady."

he said it was a highlight of his career.


Maybe they should do the "no sound but the crowd" thing that NBC did with a football broadcast like 20 years ago. Though if I remember that was excruciatingly strange.

I tend to hit the mute button with many of these guys - watching the game in hi-def is sometimes satisfying enough.

Yes, no Berman is very good, but I'm not sure if it balances out the CONSTANT presence of Joe Morgan. Gah. The reason the game got rained out the other night is probably because God decided 2 JM games in one day is too much to take, even for Him.

But if there is a God, a benevolent one, wouldn't the world he designed be devoid of Joe Morgan's post-playing broadcast career? Isn't this proof that atheism is the only answer?

"she is one classy, classy lady."

This has GOT to be a euphemism.

No, SF, it's His way of testing us. Kinda like Job, but worse.

Boils? No big deal. Leprosy? Feh. Morgan for 3 hours? GACK!!!

I'm going to take Mo's/ARod's/Jorge's advice and press esse-ah-pay on my remote next game. I bet it will be much more enjoyable, even though my Spanish sucks.

Berman does well at football. He needs to lay off the baseball. Anyway, if I'm by myself, I'll mute the games and provide my own play-by-play. The old baseball announcer wannabe coming through, I guess...

"...The Cardinals went rumblin', bumblin', stumblin' into the playoffs...." (actual quote)


SF: So you get a little tongue-in-cheek needling, and now use that as some kind of baseline for consistency? NOT BUYING IT! Let's not mischaracterize what I wrote, then or now. Obviously, I had no joy in seeing the Yanks lose in either 2001 or 2004.

And do we really need to have the whole Cashman and money debate? He should have acquired pitching instead of making the (incredibly one-sided, and phenomenally succesful) Abreu deal? What pitching was he supposed to acquire? The Boy Wonder didn't exactly stock up either. Nor did Walt Jockety, or any of the other contenders, who clearly could have added an extra arm.

So, yeah, the Yanks have a monster payroll. But the franchise is worth a billion plus dollars, it set an attendance record, and is building a new stadium. So the money spent appears to have paid off, nevermind the standings.

You are being a wet blanket here, YF. As far as I can tell, Paul's funny thread opened up some good debate on a whole host of issues, about playoff collapses, fan emotion during those collapses, and the impact of playoff failure on a team's management, as well as some pretty funny stuff about playoff broadcasters. For the most part, it's been polite, and momentarily humorous. I am not sure why you seem so grumpy. At least your team is still playing. I am supposed to be the curmudgeonly one, you know!

speaking of myers chose not to persue charges against bret for slapping her up in public. please take note, if you see kim getting punched outside of a bar at 2 in the morning, do not help her. she asked for it.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Search YFSF

Sports Gambling


schedule & standings