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Thursday, December 13, 2007

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Wow. Clemens getting needles in the ass loaded with anabolic steroids.

Damned shame.

Thought Pettitte is named, it shows he took HGH only a couple of times during a stint on the DL in 2002.

*yawn*

booooorrrrrr-iiinnnngggggggg...it just shows the players that were linked to those two dealers, what about all the other dealers they couldn't talk to??? this is a joke, almost makes it worse than better.

i agree Kreug. we can name additional players who werent named in this thing.

Clemens is really bumming. He's got the graphic "needles in the butt" and you know Gary Sheffield frowns on that.

From Baltimore Sun:

Synthetic testosterone was banned by Major League Baseball in 2003, and hGH was banned in January 2005.

So Pettitte's only transgression was obtaining it from a non-doctor person, I guess? Confusion....

It's interesting how all the crazy "religious" pitchers seem to get drawn towards the "jesus juice."

Up to page 114 and I am susbtantially depressed. I haven't even read the names yet, but the history lesson is enough to get you down. This is because I started paying attention to baseball in 1993, so all these accounts, these Lenny Dystra/Canseco stories are not just historical record, but in my memory. I remember seeing the pictures of Dykstra changing from a slightly stocky guy to a bulked up action figure in 1990..and i remember chuckling when he attributed his extra 30 lbs of muscle to "really good vitamins."

Bodies from Waiver Wire, National League Notebook, S.F. Chron., Apr. 7, 1990, at D3 (“Center fielder Len Dykstra, who was supposed to be trade bait last winter, came back 26 pounds heavier and proceeded to go 4-for-4 with a double Sunday in his first official game of the season. Reason: ‘I did a lot of lifting and free weights. And I took some very good vitamins.’ Uh-oh.”); Stan Hochman, Thomas: Blame Union, Not Phils, Phila. Daily News, Mar. 16, 1991, at 45

(“Guys saying that if Lenny Dykstra hits .325 we’re not worried about what happens off the
field. We are very concerned. But our hands are tied. We’re handcuffed by the union.”); Ross
Newhan, In Your Face if Not Your Hair, L.A. Times, Mar. 20, 1994, at Sports 3.

I remember that; I think I saw it on the news or during a game, and yet in the intervening time, I forgot.

*turning to page 115*

I don't like this report, the tabs are indented about twice as much as they need to be. And clearly trying to pad the length with all this double spacing and random empty pages... I went to college, I know what you're doing here, Mitchell. Nice try though.

Interesting how some can view authoritative accusations about arguably the greatest pitcher of the past several generations are viewed by some as "boring."

hudson: it's boring because it's incomplete. how many others were involved with PED??? We'll never know? not to mention none of this can ever be proven...

Proven? By a positive test you mean? From what I can tell, I think its safe to say that McNafee bought steroids from Radomski via the payment records.

Now we have one person saying under oath that he injected Clemens with steroids multiple times over a couple of years while at the same time having independent evidence showing that they were close enough professionally and close enough physically that this could have happened.

Its not a positive test but its either that or an outright betrayal of Clemens by a Yankee employee. McNaffee's like would also be consistent over multiple interviews by both Mitchell and the District Attorney. It would aslo Perjury as he was under oath with the district attorney and against McNafee's personal interest, as he was providing information that if ever found untruthful would cause him to be in jail a long time.

I will say it is incomplete in that it doesn't detail every one using steroids, but honestly it tells me enough to prove the larger point: the sport was at all levels inundated with players using steroids. It was accessible and used often enough by enough varied players that we can no longer believe it was exaggerated.

Personally, I thought we knew all this; I don't see why the specific names prove the point.

and clemens issues his denial. Although i believe he prob. did take PEDs his lawyer does make some good points as far as the sources from which we are getting info on Clemens and his inability to defend himself. Separated from the particular case they are good points and illustrate the major problems with this report. Players shouldnt be tried in the court of public opinion but i guess thats the way it goes.

> Personally, I thought we knew all this; I don't see why the specific names prove the point.

I agree with your position for the most part, Carlos, but the fact that (by my count) 22 of the 87 names mentioned in the report for the Yankees at some point really drives it home.

edit: in the report played for the

as far as the sources from which we are getting info on Clemens and his inability to defend himself.

George Mitchell requested that Roger Clemens sit down and discuss everything with him, but Roger denied. He had his chance to talk to him about it.

Additionally, this isn't a courtroom. All this report was was an investigation, with the goal of gaining more information. They aren't charging anyone with anything--they were just getting a feel for how many steroid users are out there. Mitchell did not have to contact Roger if he didn't want to.

Good post, Atheose.

The problem with the report is that it lacked the teeth, from the beginning, to be effective. Mitchell had no subpoena power. His star witness only talked to him because he was compelled to in return for the acceptance of a plea deal on his own criminal issues. It is likely that others would have been named had he been able to pressure other suppliers or compel player testimony. I suspect this will be the end of MLB's official actions with regard to past steroid use. There is not much else to be gained other than a new list of players, which doesn't especially do much. And, while steroid use was illegal long before MLB and the Union got around to acknowledging it with a ban, they can't punish players for use prior to 2004 anyway.

Make the testing as tough as it can be and hope you catch the next guy who thinks he can get away with it.

"...the fact that (by my count) 22 of the 87 names mentioned in the report for the Yankees at some point..."

that may be the most troubling point ag, yet it merely supports the fact that the investigation was limited in scope to a couple of whistle-blowers who associated with specific players on specific teams, almost assuring this outcome...mitchell both acknowledged the difficulty he had encouraging witnesses to speak to him, while asserting that the investigation was "thorough"...huh?


"...They aren't charging anyone with anything..."

uh, actually they are atheose...by releasing the names and allowing all of us to speculate and draw our own conclusions based on heresay, and coerced testimony from reluctant witnesses, the names on the list will forever be linked to this scandal...we may never know if this is a fair treatment of those guys or not...

//uh, actually they are atheose...//

No, they're not bringing anyone to court. There are no legal consequences, at least as far as I know.

//we may never know if this is a fair treatment of those guys or not...//

I think it's unfair in that this is almost certainly an incomplete list, and these guys were just unlucky enough to get caught. But I highly doubt that Mitchell would include any names without having substantial evidence - something that would hold up in court, if you will. Not because he's pressing charges, but because he needs to be prepared to defend himself in a libel suit.

i realize that this was not a legal proceeding jackie, so the "allegations" aren't legally a formal indictment, and don't officially require anybody to do anything except maybe for the accused to either defend themselves or admit their guilt and move on, but they are charges or allegations nonetheless...damaging, so let's hope they're all guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt...to be fair i haven't read the entire report...i've been getting it spoon fed to me by the media, folks here, and friends...i said earlier today that i'd really like to fully understand the process and methods of evidence gathering and verification used by the committee before i comment too much...at first blush though, i do want to express my disappointment at the apparent lack of scope, which is probably not mitchell's fault...he received very little cooperation from anyone, and he used the low hanging fruit from concurrent legal investigations, using the FBI to muscle a couple of folks into testifying...feels a bit lazy to me, but i suppose he had no choice...

They haven't been charged in a court of law, but they HAVE been charged (and convicted) in the court of public opinion. And nothing anyone says or does from this point onward can undo this. Even if some of those allegations eventually turn out to be false (and why couldn't they?), the reputation of these people is forever ruined.

It's unbelievable some people are stupid enough to think that this report and the list is the be-all, end-all and whoever didn't get named is innocent. Lucky not to get busted is more like it. If only a couple of paths of inquiry turned up about 80 people, can you imagine what the actual number might be like? It's disturbing to even contemplate...and what's even more disturbing is that, for all we know, this might still be just as rampant - at least in terms of HGH use since it can't be tested for.

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