Name That User

It may not help bring closure to the Steroid Era. It may actually border on the voyeuristic. But everyone's talking about the names that are cotnained in the Mitchell Report today, and the first leak is that of Roger Clemens, according to ESPN.

So have at it.

Comments

[Lar]

Hrmm, AP does train with RC quite a bit. I hope that he isn't on it..

[dknyc]

"Gonna be a bad day in the Bronx" Not fun.

[Atheose]

Brendan Donnelly was probably named in the report, which is why he was non-tendered.

Look around the league. If this happens with any other players today you can assume the same.

[Paul SF]

The question will be, if it's true, when did Clemens start using. The natural break is the difference between his 1996 and 1997 seasons, but he was actually blowing hitters away in his last season in Boston, just got no run support. I wonder if he didn't start using (again, if true) in 1994-95 and ran into the same thing Bonds did -- his muscles grew too quick and caused some pulls and tears -- which he had in abundance from 1994-96. Seemed like he couldn't stay off the DL in those years.

[yankeemonkey]

Interesting point, Atheose.

One name I pray *is* on there is Carl Pavano. Can you imagine? There would be much rejoicing in Yankeeland if that were the case...

Why are two of the sources connected with NY teams?

Curious that no other area had informers.

[DAW]

Also, Paul, I wonder if it's possible for a player to only use sporadically, like when he's on the DL, for instance?

[yankeemonkey]

Paul, that's exactly why this whole affair is so bothersome. There is no *proof* aside from what pretty much amounts to clubhouse gossip. Without actual positive tests, there will be no way of knowing if/when/how for sure. I'll bet an army of lawyers is already drafting libel/defamation suits...

[Paul SF]

Well, the NYT reported yesterday that the names would be included with documentary evidence. Obviously, "the Yankees trainer says so" is not documentary. So I'm wondering if there is some harder evidence there, or if the NYT heard wrong. I agree, the hearsay stuff is unhelpful.

Frankly, I'm not sure naming anyone is helpful -- though I admit I've been hoping they would.

[Nick-YF]

I guess I don't see the point in naming names. It appeases the pitchfork and torch mob, but, in my view, it isn't cathartic or useful.

[yankeemonkey]

What kind of documentary evidence could there be? Photos of players accepting stacks of syringes? Surely no one is so dumb as to pay for illegal drugs with a check or a credit card?

[Brad]

Brendan Donnelly

I've alwasys said that that ENTIRE Angels bullpen was suspect from that time frame:)

[Nick-YF]

Wasn't there a paper trail linking Gary Matthews to HGH? YM, people can be stupid.

[Paul SF]

YM, the NYT said receipts, canceled checks, phone records, etc. So apparently some ARE dumb enough...

[John - YF]

This report is a mistake. Bud Selig will look back at this as another "All-Star Game Tie." What good is going to come out of this?

[Atheose]

Yeah, I just heard on ESPN (tv) that Clemens' trainer has a paper trail. I dunno how much proof that gives ("That $6,000 wasn't for steroids! It was for pizza!"), but we'll see later I suppose.

[Paul SF]

Red Sox users we know of:

Jose Canseco
Jeremy Giambi
Paxton Crawford

I wonder if they're part of the "60-80" or not...

Likewise, Yankee users:

Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
Tony Womack

And now Roger Clemens.

The big question is it's 60-80 new names. Because we could probably get together a list of 30 or so names we already knew/suspected.

[yankeemonkey]

Good point, Nick. I forgot about that one. Heh.

[John - YF]

Look for Brad Wilkerson.

[Nick-YF]

Was the Tony Womack quip a joke? Or did I miss something?

Yeah, I never knew about Tony Womack either. Is that forrizzle?

[yankeemonkey]

I have a good (bad?) feeling about Paul Lo Duca being named. The man is clearly mad with 'roid rage.

[sam-YF]

So it was gonna come up eventually and maybe I should wait until we actually can read the report but Clemens has got to be the first case where we can ask about Mitchell's Red Sox connection. Let me be clear, im not saying Roger was named because he was a Yankee more that I find it interesting that it would so clearly say while he was a Jay and a yankee he juiced. How much did Mitchell dig into his time at the sox? was the source even with him at the time?

For all these reasons, you can put Clemens in the Sox who juice category too. Like it or not, we have no idea when he did what.

[Paul SF]

My bad, Nick. Meant Matt Lawton.

[John - YF]

Yeah Womack, Andy Stankiewicz and Alvaro Espinoza. Common knowledge, duh!

JK

[sam-YF]

Take a look at Womack's eyebrows, you telling me that guy didnt juice?

[Atheose]

I remember reading a pitching book by Tom House years ago, and he had a chapter on steroids. He believed that pitchers benefit the most from steroids, especially when you're in your late-30's/early 40's.

Anyone have an over/under estimate on the percentage of names are pitchers? I'll put the bar at 30%.

[Nick-YF]

The important part for me about this report is not the names but how good/bad a case Mitchell makes about the extent of steroid use during the period in question. Is his report going to imply that these names were just the tip of the iceberg, or is he going to say that these were isolated instances as far as he could tell?

[yankeemonkey]

I'll take the over, considering how many of the people actually busted so far have been pitchers. I'd say it's more like 50-65%.

[Nick-YF]

Tony Womack's Eye Brows should have been a blog name. I always thought he kind of looked like the mean baby on the Simpsons. Anyone? Anyone?

[DR]

Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were linked while they were on the Astros, right? If I recall, that story was somehow debunked and disappeared. I forget the details.

The thing about these drugs that seem so amazing is how effective they seem to be in actually enhancing performance. The fact that we are all able to throw out names based not only body size, but suspiciously increased performance (I'm looking at you Bret Boone!) seems to demonstrate this.

[Paul SF]

For all these reasons, you can put Clemens in the Sox who juice category too.

Like I said, based on his injury history, I would think it's highly probable he started using in somewhere around 1993, the season he was barely league average and went 11-14. He then missed significant time with injuries in 1994-95 (groin pulls the main culprit, IIRC) but pitched MUCH better, had an excellent year in 1996 and the rest is history.

All speculation, of course, but I wonder if 1993 scared him and he decided he needed something to regain that edge.

[John - YF]

Naming a blog after him would have only made the memory of his stay with the Yankees last longer. I would like to have that memory, the memory of Kenny Lofton and the entire 2004 baseball season zapped from my memory with that doo-dad from Men In Black.

[Kazz]

On the horizon:

If BB can't go to the hall, neither can RC. If RC can, BB should.

[sam-YF]

Im with ya Nick, ive actually made that connection myself with one of my buddies.

[Nick-YF]

But, DR, what about Matt Lawton, Jason Grimsley, Alex Sanchez, Guillermo Mota, Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Death Cab for Cutie, etc?

[dc]

ym, i agree with you in hoping that there's more to this investigation than mere gossip by even shadier characters than the guys being named [you know, "no honor among thieves"]...that's why i said that i'd like to get a better feel for the process that mitchell followed, especially to establish the veracity of the individuals providing the information, and the verification of evidence...i'm no attorney, so i doubt he has the same burden of proof that a prosecutor in a courtroom setting would have, but i'll know a sloppy investigation when i see one...

[sam-YF]

Thats an interesting read Paul, I guess it could be once you start you cant stop.

Bonds and Clemens should both be in the hall IMO

[Nick-YF]

Regarding BB, this is probably going to be a good day for him. Already, Gammons on ESPN is speaking sympathetically about him.

[DAW]

"How much did Mitchell dig into his time at the sox?"

Sam, in my book, the very fact that that question can be asked underlines the stupidity of naming Mitchell, or anyone else with ties to a club, to head this investigation. The findings will be controversial enough without the extra layer of bias questions sure to be asked by teams who feel they have been singled out.

[Paul SF]

I think most people are saying Bonds should/will get to the Hall based on his pre-usage numbers. Clemens would be in the same category, I think.

[Brad]

Mitchell once turned down an offer to be a Supreme Court Justice. I'm sure he knows how to protect himself from lawsuits and legal action. Nothing he says today can't be proven or backed with evidence. He's not going to tarnish anyone based on heresay.

[yankeemonkey]

Buster Olney adds to my point above:

An agent tells this story: One of his clients was asked by the Mitchell investigators to address a question of steroid impropriety that came out of the information from former Mets batboy Kirk Radomski. The player was shown a canceled check in his name, written to Radomski, and asked to explain what it was for. The player responded: I don't know. Because it could've been for anything from a McDonald's run for a group of players to clubhouse dues or something else. But the player said he knew this: It wasn't for performance-enhancing drugs. And, in the end, the Mitchell investigators backed off.

Is a benign canceled check combined with the word of a former Mets batboy enough to include a player in the report? And no matter what the intention of the Mitchell investigators is, the reality is that if a player's name is in this report in relation to steroids, he will be effectively convicted in the court of public opinion.

And you can bet that there is even one name that we haven't heard before, the union is going to have a lot to say, in its own press conference, about how this report was generated.

[Atheose]

And that's not even mentioning Pete Rose, Kazz!

Steve Phillips just said he would vote Roger into the HOF anyways based on what he did BEFORE he reportedly used 'roids. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Jesus I'm really torn right now, just in general.

[DR]

Nick - have you heard the Death Cab for Cutie albums before they started using? I think that is powerful enough proof of the power of these drugs.

In addition, would we have even heard of these people without the drugs (especially Giuliani)?

[Paul SF]

The findings will be controversial enough without the extra layer of bias questions

Couldn't agree more, Andrews. Naming Mitchell -- and Mitchell refusing to step aside as director of the Red Sox -- were both incredibly obtuse decisions.

[DAW]

"Already, Gammons on ESPN is speaking sympathetically about him."

I'm sure to be in the minority here, but I wish Gammons would just STFU once in a while.

[Nick-YF]

ha! I might write a post about how Radiohead obviously used after their first album. That sucked and then the Bends comes out! What's that about?

[yankeemonkey]

So, SFs....who do you think might be some of the current/recent Sox to be named?

[Brad]

Sam is trying hard to discredit due to his lack of love for what's being said. I fully understand. I'd do the same thing, but the fact remains that Mitchell is not on a Yankee witch hunt. He's releasing his findings, and as it happens, for now anyhow, it's a Yankee. I'm sure the tides will turn later.
Did Mitchell have access to the Balco files?

[LocklandSF]

Nomar, Damon, Arroyo, Tek maybe.

[Paul SF]

Is a benign canceled check combined with the word of a former Mets batboy enough to include a player in the report?

Um, apparently not, according to Olney's own story, in which he says that Mitchell's "investigators backed off." Nothing about that anecdote seems particularly awful to me. Canceled check given to known steroid distributor who also has other roles in the clubhouse. Evidence taken to player, player denies evidence is steroid-related, investigators back off because they have no case.

If you're going to express qualms about a report, shouldn't you pick an anecdote that doesn't show investigators doing their jobs properly?

[DR]

Yes, Nick, but "Creep" could represent simple prospect potential that was fully realized later. Think Phil Hughes almost no-hitter.

Is Karl Farnsworth going to be on this list or is the Krazy simply genetic?

[Paul SF]

YM: Nomar, Nixon, Kapler are my three guesses. None of them current Sox, mind you, but I can't think of any current Sox that really fit the mold.

Maybe Mirabelli.

[Atheose]

ESPN is now reporting that Andy Pettitte is named as well.

Goddamnit.

Oh, and Yankeemonkey, I've got money on Nomar, Millar and Pokey Reese.

[LocklandSF]

RUMOR ALERT!!!!

"Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood"

[Atheose]

Is Karl Farnsworth going to be on this list or is the Krazy simply genetic?

HAHA thanks for the laugh DR! Same goes for Tavarez. 'Crazy' is all natural baby!

[yankeemonkey]

Ooooh the plot thickens! Pete A. reports Yankees will hold a conference call in a few minutes to announce A-Rod's contract.

Hmm. A-Rod will be in on the call. Rushing to announce it before 2 pm...

Nah...it couldn't be, could it?

[DAW]

"Sam is trying hard to discredit due to his lack of love for what's being said."

The problem here, Brad is perception, which could have been easily avoided by Selig appointing someone else.

[Atheose]

LocklandSF, where did you get that list?

If that shit is real, I now REALLY hate Eric Gagne!

[sam-YF]

Brad I tried to make that clear in my post. I am not discrediting what is being said about clemens as a yankee, in fact I believe it as much as it pains me. My point was that it was interesting that there was a specific cut off point as to when he changed teams. All Im asking is how much did he dig into the sox vs the other teams. (by other teams i dont mean yankees only.) Im less concerned about Mitchell being on a witchhunt for a specific player or team than i am about him not being as vigorous in his investigation of the team he has a financial interest in.

[Nick-YF]

Lockland, did you just make that list up?

DR, interesting point about Creep. What other groups fit into the shitty beginning, good career after category?

[Mark (YF)]

I wonder about the players who used HGH before it was banned will be named. It will look bad, but they weren't in actual violation of anything.

I also will be interested to see if Mitchell named any high profile Red Sox players. Canseco is his own deal who played for a whole bunch of teams and is the most famous admitted juicer of all time, but Crawford and Jer. Giambi are pretty small potatoes. But I think given the very real nature of Mitchell's conflict of interest in the investigation, there will always be a huge shadow of doubt over the "naming and shaming" of players of other teams unless prime time Sox players are in there as well.

That may or may not be fair, but that's pretty much the situation Selig created when he picked the lead investigator from the payroll of one of the game's marquee franchises.

[yankeemonkey]

Lockland, what's the source on that???

[LocklandSF]

Emailed to my by a friend, rumor is the list came off of Blooberg.

[Nick-YF]

on the conference call, A-Rod could say anything and no one will report it because of the Mitchell report:

"I wear purple lipstick. Derek Jeter and I hate each other. Greed is good. F*ck Compton. Tim Dog is my motherf*ckin' name! Any questions?"

[sam-YF]

if its off a Bloomberg its probably made up by some trader with too much time on his hand.

[Paul SF]

Come on, Lockland. Where did you get it?

Albert Pujols?? Man oh man.

And Mo Vaughn. And Jason Varitek. :-( Sad day. If true, of course.

[LocklandSF]

The only reason I posted the list was that, well, it's all seems plausible, the number of names seems pretty close.

I don't know, call it hunch, but that list looks right to me.

[Nick-YF]

That list looks like BS, but what do I know?

[sam-YF]

How about Johnny Damon? That would send shockwaves though the hub.

[Paul SF]

Well, if someone made it up, they went through a lot of time and effort finding all the people who have been suspended for PED use or otherwise admitted it publicly, and then managed to find a believable list of all the other players you would most likely believe took PEDs.

Of course, maybe that's proof that it's untrue. It looks too unsurprising.

[Brad]

No, Andrews. You are not in the minority. He has lost a lot since becoming ESPN's poster boy for baseball reporting.

[yankeemonkey]

Didn't a "source" say there's no current Mets named? I see Ramon Castro on Lockland's list...I do agree it's pretty close to what I'd expect.

[RS Fanbase]

Rich Garces! Hahaha

Surprised about veritek. Shame, shame.

[Nick-YF]

"It looks too unsurprising"

That's my feeling about that list. It just looks like someone's pool.

[Atheose]

If Tejada is on the list then I don't understand why the Astros would accept the trade yesterday.

Smells fishy to me.

[Kazz]

Troy Glaus evidently did enough steroids for two people!

[Paul SF]

That would send shockwaves though the hub.

Really? I think most Sox fans already hate him, so I don't know that it's as big a deal as someone like Varitek -- who interestingly enough has far more value in his handling of the pitching staff than his bat. Although his bat was key down the stretch in 2004.

I'd rather it be Damon and Varitek off the '04 team than Ortiz or Ramirez though.

[RS Fanbase]

The names on that list are too perfect (except garces!). I'm buying it until informed otherwise.

[Jay-YF]

I like Gammons a lot, but sometimes he can get on my nerves. His man-love for the Red Sox sometimes gets in the way of his analysis. While I thought the announcement of A-Rod opting out during the World Series was cheap, Gammons acted as though Rodriguez took over the airwaves and slaughtered puppies on camera.

[Nick-YF]

Any reasons why Clemens and Pettitte are the only names leaked so far?

[Brad]

And Mo Vaughn. And Jason Varitek. :-( Sad day. If true, of course...

I've thought this for awhile.

[Kazz]

Tek would be the real dagger in the back, but, being a Red Sox fan, I can't help but give him a free ride on everything, no matter what.

[sam-YF]

Paul even if sox fans hate Damon now there is no disputing he was central to the 2004 win. People here have questioned the yankees win in 03 simply because PED user Giambi hit a few big HRs. The same standard would have to be applied no?

[Atheose]

Because Clemens in the biggest one, and Pettitte goes along cause they use the same trainer.

I'm genuinely sad about Pettitte.

[Nick-YF]

Oh, my favorite argument is about to begin about how previous championships are now invalidated! Yea!!!

Let's stop it now.

[LocklandSF]

Not that this makes it any better, but a lot of the stuff I'm reading is saying that MOST of these players used HGH simply to recover from injury faster, isolated incidents, not habitual use.

[Kazz]

Nick: To be fair, the RS have more recent championships to invalidate than the Yankees do.

*obvious jab*

[Atheose]

Sam, the same standard should be applied. Damon's superman-like performance in Game 7 makes the win a little less earnest, though Game 7 in 2004 was a MUCH closer game, and Damon sucked for the ALCS before Game 7 so I guess it kinda balances it out.

LIke someone above said, I would MUCH rather Damon and Varitek are named than Ortiz and Manny.

[sam-YF]

I dont think its invalidated at all, sorry if thats what I implied. I just think that certain people here have made that point and it could now be applied to their own team.

Sorry i even brought it up.

[Nick-YF]

the thing is that I would be more sad if any of these players were implicated as being wife-beaters.

Andy Pettitte will probably be booed more than Brett Myers next year.

Justice served!

[Nick-YF]

Oh, I'm not lashing out at just you Sam. I saw other people preparing rationalizations for the counter argument, and I just wanted to nip it in the bud. Sorry to be so angry about it.

[Atheose]

That should say Game 7 in 2003 was much closer.

But Nick is right, the entire invalidation of previous championships is a bad road to go down.

[DR]

Maybe Clemens was leaked first because it sends a signal right away that nothing sacred will be protected.

Maybe Pettitte thought his testicles were too large and used drugs because he could no longe live with the discomfort.

[Paul SF]

Yeah, Damon was actually not central to the ALCS rally, and though his 6 RBI got a lot of press, the big hit of Game 7 was Ortiz' first-inning home run. Derek Lowe also allowed just one hit and was taken out because the lead was so big, so I don't feel too bad about that.

And, like Nick said, we just can't do the invalidation thing. For individual awards or stats, maybe, like they do in the Olympics or college basketball, but team accomplishments are just that. For the record, I've never considered the Yankees' wins any less valid because of Giambi or Sheffield or Lawton (snicker). Well, deep inside I have, but that's where the irrational thoughts stay.

[Atheose]

Clemens was leaked first because he was the biggest name, plain and simple.

[Nick-YF]

"Maybe Pettitte thought his testicles were too large and used drugs because he could no longe live with the discomfort."

I'd respect him if that were his defense. It would be a Rovian strategy that just might work!

[DR]

Nick - It would definitely humble the insecure sports radio hosts.

[Paul SF]

I'm really surprised and disappointed about Pettitte, if that's true. I've always considered him one of the "good guys."