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Tuesday, August 01, 2006

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The yankers' new colors are chrome and aqua? How contemporary.

I'm totally going to refrain from the Ron Burgandy "Panther" analogies.

Jeter is the most overrated player in the game. Hustle, sure, execute, eh. I hope the bottle is pretty (like Jeter) because the look is certainly more important than the substance. Just like Jeter, there aint nothing there.

Tell us exactly why he's overated Manny, be precise.

To the best of my recollection, his stats in the field are average. He makes his share of errors. His range, especially since his tragic dislocation, has gone down. I find that he tends to make regular plays with a flare, and that flare is perceieved as him making an oustanding play. For examply, how many times have you seen him make a throw to first off his back foot rather than setting and then throwing, only to throw the guy out at first by 10 feet. Of course, he could have simply made the play, but Jeter likes to make it look tough. His media silence seems to make him classy. I don't know, but when the media harps on his teamates (see Slappy Rodriguez) I would think he could say a little something in his defense. His continued silence cooncerning his teamates to me says he would rather throw them under the bus.

And if you introduce a line of cologne as a ball player, in the middle of the freaking season, you are gay. Next A-Rod will introduce a line of purses

No mention of his offense, Manny? Why's that?

Admittedly, and I hate it, he is having a hell of a year at the plate. I just crapped my pants having to admit it.

and the problem with being gay is...?

criticism of jeter is one thing. homophobia is another.

Just imagine the derision heaped on a Sox player if there was a "Chanel #24" on the market.

What does this stuff smell like? A mix of dirt, eye black, an pine tar? PU.

OK, easy with the homophobia. That, dear Beth is a joke. He can be as agay as he wants, good for him. It only proves my point about the cologne. if you think it is homophobic, go find yourself a gay man and ask if bringing a line of cologne to the market in the middle of a baseball season is gay.

not that i agree but.... hasn't DJ been voted by his fellow players as the most overrated the last few years. MLB does those annonymous player polls at the end of the year, and if memory serves me right, dereks always at the top.

eh, this kind of stuff doesn't really move me either way. michael jordan hawked a lot of stuff like this in his day. i'm also a major fan of the NFL's prettiest QB, who has done dior modeling. i'm in a glass house when it comes to the metrosexual marketing campaigns.

The only issue I have with Jeter is the same issue I have with all sports figures...I'm not really into their senses of style. Personally I don't where cologne and I also don't wear those crazy armani stretch shirt things (of course I also don't own a car). Other than that...besides Mo, the MVP this season really should fall on Jeter's shoulders--I don't care how many times Ortiz bails the Sox out in the end.

MM, what *is* your point that i supposedly proved with my response, then?

I dont like it. Ballplayers make enough playing ball. So stick with it. I dont need to know about jeters cologne or jordans shoes during a season. (especially jeter's cologne though, cause, well, jeter sucks)

How about that for a metro-turned-flame-thrower comment (pun intended!)

i can't wait for freddy sanchezs new scent. because the numbers would tell you freddy is every bit the same player DJ is this year. anybody voting for DJ in this years MVP debate should also pencil in freddy farmhand in the NL. freddy's scent should be called "suppan".

on a side note a-gonz is now hitting 5 points higher than a-rod. who would have bet that at the begining of the year?

"Over-rated" is a judgement call about the rating and exposure granted to an athlete by others. Sometimes it's a statistical critique and sometimes it's an emotional reaction, but it's not a direct statement about the athlete themself. To be "most over-rated", you first have to become one of the "most rated", which is a testament in and of itself about the caliber of the athlete in question.

MM, i realize it was an offhand comment, wasn't your intention, etc., but that doesn't make it okay to me. as much as i may despise a-rod and dislike jeter, it still bugs me that terms like "gay" and comments about their sexual orientation are thrown around whenever they're discussed. isn't it possible to deride them without disparaging women (cf. purse comment re a-rod) and homosexuals in the process?

it's not just you. but your comment was a good example.

Career to date at age 31:
BA-.316 OBP-.388 SLG-.463 Runs-1228
Hits-2074; 1996 Rookie of the Year, 2000 World Series MVP, 2000 All-Star Game MVP, 2 AL Golden Gloves at SS in '04 and '05. Yeah, he's totally overated.

Good point SF Rod. And how can Ortiz not be the MVP. Name a single player who has had a greater impact on the team for which he plays. Really, any Red Sox fan will tell you that he is our MVP, and that is true judge of MVPness. Jeter's cologne smells like Arods crotch.

bloodyank, i think everything after the numbers you mentioned is part of the reason people are bringing up the "overrated" thing. every one of those awards is a subjective thing decided by personal votes on the part of writers, teammates, fellow players, fans, etc. those kinds of awards can become a popularity contest. many, many people question the gold gloves in particular.

Well Beth, I guess you need to be less sensitive. Women wear purses and women with purses tend to be less masculine, thus Arod with a purse makes him less masculine. And a real man would not have slapped his oponent with an open hand, like a womnan would hit someone. Now, about the gayness thing. I in no way am dispariging any gay men by calling Jeter gay. In fact I believe that most men gay or otherwise, would enjoy the comparison. But you have to admit, a line of cologne tends be a little more feminine that, say, a line of beef jerky. And you would further admit that gay men IN GENERAL AND NOT ALL OF THEM, tend to be a little more feminine than straight men (or metrosexuals walein)thus a man who introduces a line of cologne would more likely be gay than a man who introduces a line of beef jerky. Its no knock against him, but, as I said, introducing a line of cologne is kinda gay. And I just asked my gay coworker and he agreed with me about the cologne. And he thinks Jeter has a great ass too.

also, the numbers dont lie. well done.

Yeah, bringing up the Gold Gloves as an example of why Jeter's not overrated defeats the argument. I don't think jeter's overrated -- he's a first-balloter who like Manny (Ramirez, not the poster here) deserves a regular-season MVP award before the end of his career, but I do think Jeter gets more recognition for things just because he's *Jeter* than other players who do the same things. Ah well, that's sports in a major market.

But coming out with an ad like that in the middle of the season makes him an open target for mockery, and rightly so.

How are OBP and AVG subjective statistics? Here's an objective statement: Derek Jeter is one of the best hitting short stops of the last 10 years.

Another thing: In 1999, Derek Jeter was robbed of the MVP by those scribes who supposedly over-rate his performance. Bill James is just one of the many intelligent baseball analysts who thought he should have won it in 1999.

"Its no knock against him, but, as I said, introducing a line of cologne is kinda gay."

then what was your point in including that adjective in your original post?

Bloodyank78 I totally agree with your stats. I'm not sure how anyone could ever think he was even a better than average player.

The problem with the "cologne" thing is something that I feel both Yanks and Sox fans can agree. Would any of us really want to have a "family dinner" with a guy who wears the tight armani shirt? Would any of us want to have that same hypothetical dinner with the 6'4" guy with the $300,000 bright and garish 'ice'-chain?

No. It would be weird.

However, this doesn't change the fact the Derek Jeter is putting up numbers and actually playing an important position in the field (every day) on a team that has been suffering alot of adversity (both injury and terrible pitching). Whereas the Red Sox and their "I don't play a position on the field and have made the 'hitting' difference in about 9 games out of 162 DH" have suffered some of the same injuries but nothing even remotely challenging the Yankees.

walein, 4:00?

"Derek Jeter is one of the best hitting short stops of the last 10 years." Certainly true. He is one of the top ten or fifteen probably. That does not mean he is not overated. And I deserve an MVP

MM, why so angry? i mean, i hate anyone in pinstripes too(have ever since Nettles/Lee) but, athletes can pettle any product they want, its America, make as much as you can. Derek Jeter is a winner(ugh). like Tony Soprano says...you may hate me, but you will respect me.

I revised that...but the computer i'm on does not seem able to comply. The point is that David Ortiz is a more over-rated player than Derek Jeter.

Manny, um, try one of the top 5 offensive short stops of the last 10 years.

Not sure yet Nick-YF, not feeling so great...of course watching this Pekinpah movie isn't helping my psycological outlook on things.

"Really, any Red Sox fan will tell you that he is our MVP, and that is true judge of MVPness."

Remarkable.

"And you would further admit that gay men IN GENERAL AND NOT ALL OF THEM, tend to be a little more feminine than straight men (or metrosexuals walein)thus a man who introduces a line of cologne would more likely be gay than a man who introduces a line of beef jerky"

In view of such intellect at work, I am speechless.

Another reason I love Jeter is that he's half Irish like me. =)

No anger here, just an observation. I have always hated the pinstripes and all it entails. Jeter's cologne just threw me over the top. Maybe i did not have to feel that way, but I do. Kinda like when Jeter dove into the stands to catch a ball that he could have gotten without diving over the top. And I would bet that more Sox fans think that Papi is the MVP of the Sox than Yankee fans think Jeter is the MVP of the Yanks. Sorry Walein, but I would rather Papi anytime over Jeter. You would have to insane not to want him at the plate over Jeter in most situations.

"And I would bet that more Sox fans think that Papi is the MVP of the Sox than Yankee fans think Jeter is the MVP of the Yanks."

Really? This year? I'd take that bet.

Thank you ATTACKGERBIL for finally seeing my talents. My logic can't be beat. And I love Beef Jerky.

Thats fine, but i'm kinda sick of the M.V.P talk. The only M.V.P i want a Red Sox to win is W.S.M.V.P...

MM: So, you want Jeter to come out with a line of beef jerkey? I'm confused.

And, MM, I wouldn't say that Beth needs to be less sensitive; I would say you need to be less of a bigot.

Now I am a bigot who likes beef jerky. Wow. I never knew that calling a purse feminine and coclogne gay meant I was a bigot. Thanks for the enlightenment. Now you can go back to teaching your sociology class, I am going to watch baseball.

Do not worry Manny. The talent and logic in your comments is in full view. I would not know how to begin to describe it.

I apologize, Manny. It's just that I'm wearing cologne today, and thus, having a hard time coming to terms the reprocussions of such an action (i.e., my own, seemingly intrinsic, homosexuality).

I don't think what Manny said was meant to be harmful. That said, you gotta watch your P's and Q's on a blog Manny. All sorts of people are behind these screen names, you never know who's gonna get upset.

I have seen Wakefield on the cover of an Avon catalog around the office. So I guess that means...(not that there's anything wrong with that).

No. My "pun-intended comment" was simply the fact that "flaming" as a term is considered to mean "gay" or in the dialogue we are having here "homo-sexual" or maybe "same-sex-inclined" feels a little better, versus "flame-throwing" where I directly attack the Sox' David Ortiz...thus throwing "fuel on the fire" or "fire on the fuel". The fact that I'm trying to bridge the gap between obvious homo-phobia and good-natured annoyance of human beings that over-pamper themselves ("metro-sexual" not a word I've ever really used but here, right now. Not a word I particularly like; and not a word whose origin I"m at all sure about) while the rest of us have to scramble around trying to figure out ways to afford going to go to a fucking game. So if you sense any "friction" or "anger" in my tenor it is simply a class issue and not an issue of gender or sexual identity.
I also have very little tolerence for the non-stop attack on players on my team (the Yanks) concerning "purple lipstick" and "pretty-boy." I feel that that type of humor is identical to what AG is saying isn't "intellectual." That's my opinion about things.
Let us go Yankees!

"you need to be less sensitive". ha! i'm surprised you didn't just resort to "well, i'm rubber and you're glue".

you made a stupid comment, manny, and you got called on it. why you can't just say "my bad" and move on is beyond me.

Jeter is one of the best offensive shortstops of the last 10 years -- right behind Rodriguez and Nomar :-D

But I would agree that more Sox fans say Papi is MVP of the Sox than Yanks fans say likewise for Jeter -- Don't forget Mariano Rivera being he only pitcher worth his paycheck in the bullpen. I've heard YFs on this site mention him as the team's MVP.

walein, you're definitely one of those who take the fielding/hitting argument to the annoying dogma level. So Papi winning nine games by himself with his bat (not counting all the RBI and home runs that put games away, gave the Sox a lead earlier in the game, etc.) are less valuable because he doesn't field? Then i guess Jeter isn't the MVP either, since he actually takes runs (and this games) AWAY from the Yankees on the field...

"and thus games" that should say.

Yankee mantras, 2006:

A-Rod: "I hit solid with an accelerated bat head."

Jeter: "I smell like chilled grapefruit, clean oak moss, and spice."*

Who next?


* Actual scent description from press release

Frankly, I'd love to make more out of Ortiz and Jeff Weaver's necklaces...isn't that a little ridiculous for baseball? Shouldn't there be a rule about playing in jewlery? When I played sports you weren't allowed to wear earings and such because you might get hurt...that's what they told us and I like that fantasy.
All men are created equal...they just wear different uniforms.

and of course the Yankees are better than all other baseball men.

who the hell cares about playing in jewelry? YOU gonna be the one to tell papi he has to take off his bicycle chain of diamonds? :-)

P.S.: Actually, introducing a line of "beef jerky" sounds even *more* gay than introducing colgne, Manny.

Give that line of thinking a rest.

Paul, I've seen so many posters on the Banter and Was Watching say Jeter's the MVP that I think it's comparable to the love for Ortiz. Of course, you now I think there should be more RSN love for Manny than Ortiz, but I'm a Yanks fan;). I don't understand the New England mind.

And by the way, if being a top-hitting shortstop of the past 10 years qualifies you to be MVP, shouldn't Nomar Garciaparra have won the award at some point in the past decade, by that reasoning?

He certainly had a couple of seasons when he wa considered for the MVP. No?

was*

I seem to remember Nomar was runner-up one year. Just pointing out that being among the best at your position over a 10-year period is not what MVP voters are supposed to consider. It's not a lifetime achievement award.

Yeah, I was just responding to Manny's assertion that Jetes is one of the most overrated players. It's a common refrain, but I think it's overstated and basically untrue.

Maybe "over-hyped" is a more accurate statement about Jeter than "over-rated."

And with super-duper-gay-fire I am going to say that David Ortiz IS NOT the Sox' best player, and triple-dipple-double-dare any Sox fan to say that Ortiz is more important than Manny ramirez to the team's success. If Derek Jeter was replaced by Tejada I don't think the difference would be the same as Ortiz being replaced by Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro, or any other DH who doesn't play first base (maybe Hafner).

I have to say Hudson "Over-hyped" takes ina ton of players in professional sports...the yankees just have bigger mikes than the Sox.
;)

By the way I threw in Barry...cause...he should be a DH...though it's looking like he'll be just a tad better than Thomas.

Let's get this thread back on topic. A couple of things regarding this "cologne" and Jeter:

1. The cologne isn't "gay", or "feminine", or anything like that. It's just LAME. And any Yanks fan who thinks they wouldn't be heaping derision on a Sox or Mets player who had his own "scent" is deluding themselves. But they'd also be right in their derision.

2. This ought to eliminate any pretense that Derek Jeter is some sort of unique guy in the world of sports. He's not. He's just another super-rich athlete trying to get super-richer by selling his own image, product utility be damned. Joe DiMaggio sold coffee makers, Derek sells perfume. The only difference is that Joe D. wasn't locked in for 17M a year when he started selling things. So unless I find out that Jeter is donating his endorsement fee and some of the profits to some sort of foundation, then he's no bigger than any of these other players who whore themselves out for the product of the month. Now that's entirely his right, but let's not try to call it anything it isn't. It's crass capitalism.

Also, if SF finds out who swiped his most recent issue of Communist Worker they're gonna be blogging from Siberia.

Since this is back to being a "My MVP is better than your MVP" discussion, let me throw this out:

Jon Papelbon.

Go ahead and prove that *he* isn't the real MVP of the Sox. Just like the Rivera argument, how many games has Ortiz had a chance to win because Paps was there to save them/keep score tied? Hmmm? I would argue that Papelbon should be considered for MVP before both Papi and Manny. Of course that leads back to the 'pitchers/relievers never win MVPs' discussion, but that's neither her nor there.

SF: You nailed it on number 1. That's as an effective of a thread-locker as I can imagine.

I agree, with SF. But I also believe that derek is worth more than David.

"The cologne isn't "gay", or "feminine", or anything like that. It's just LAME."

Don't knock until you've tried it. I just sprayed it on my arm and the result? A standing ovation from the Bronx faithful.

I've been watching NESN up here in the Berkshires over the past couple of days. What does SF have to say about the truly attrocious local auto ads from Tito and Papelbon, among others?

Hope A-Rod doesn't come out with a scent, Nick. They'll start throwing things at you on the street...

Me, I'm a libertarian so I congratulate Derek's ploy to be as rich as he can. But I agree with SF. It does lower him to the "rest" of the ballplayers...

walein, are you saying replacing Derek Jeter with a more-power, better-defense guy (Tejada) would make the Yankees worse off than replacing Ortiz with a lower-power, lower-OBP guy? That makes no sense whatsoever...

Man...I bet if you spray on ol-derek-de...in the Berkshires you get totally laid!!!! Man Yf, you gotta totally drop that wife and a kid thing and go get yourself a tight stretchy shirt (price: $650) and just got with it!

Man, I wish I could just proof read my pieces here.

No Paul,
I'm saying that Tejada may be the only guy who could replace what Jeter brings to the team (intangibles aside)...versus Ortiz.

But Ortiz? well...ther are lots of first baseman who actually play first base with numbers the same or better than Ortiz.

I got Sabathia going tonight on my fantas team so POOH POOH on your Red Sox!

What does SF have to say about the truly attrocious local auto ads from Tito and Papelbon, among others?

They're awesomely bad. Papelbon's is the best. And by "best" I mean "most hysterically amateurish and read with horrible timing". But remember that the kid is making the ML minimum, so he's entitled to line his pockets as much as he can at this point, at least until he's arb-eligible. And who knows when Tito will be looking for unemployment...

Now if Manny starts hawking underoos or legos or something else we can have a good long discussion.

Of course, ML minimum is still, what? $600,000?

I see, walein, gotcha. Aside from Konerko, though, I don't know that there are many actual 1B who don't cost their teams games on defense with anywhere close to Papi's offensive numbers...

so i guess what i'm supposed to take from this thread is that DJ is the best bi-sexual shortstop in the game today. i kinda knew that when the model he had been seeing for a year announced she was saving herself for marraige. we really need more high profile players to come out. good for him.

tounge planted firmly in cheek.

And supposedly Vanessa Minillo turned down Derek's attempts at reigniting their romance for...Nick Lachey. And now he takes to advertising his own personal smell. How conveeeenient...

No ads on NESN are local to the Berkshires, SF, if they star Tito or Paps. 99% of people in Boston couldn't find Sheffield (Mass., not the 'roids user) on a map.

sorry for the late response. I was saying that only Tejada could replace Jeter, interms of numbers.

SF, give me a freaking break with calling Jeter a crass, capitalistic whore. The guy has his own charity organization and is unbelievably generous with his money and time in New York and Michigan communities. File this cologne thing under "who gives a shit."

Your justification for mocking Jeter is "well, if a Sox fan had a cologne, then Yanks fans would make fun of him..." Pretty juvenile.

But who can find Sheffield, TX on a map, that's my question...

Part of Jeet's cash from smelly stuff is going to his foundation, which I think makes it a little less lame. I am waiting for A-Rod to market that lip-gloss though.

I'm just wondering, how does chilled grapefruit smell in comparison to room-temperature grapefruit? I'm guessing it's more pleasant that "rotting in the hot sun grapefruit."

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