« Your Lyin' Eyes | Main | My Bully Pulpit »

Sunday, February 05, 2006


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

I haven't watched it, but my friends say the Caribean championship, which has been on YES, has been a lot of fun. Last night Venezuela beat the DR, thanks in large part to a late inning homer by Alex "Groid" Gonzalez. Tejada and K-Rod were also playing. Who needs the WBC when you got that?

By the way, does anyone have any idea where Jerome Bettis is from?

By the way, does anyone have any idea where Jerome Bettis is from?


Wow. Someone's grumpy. And I know that YF got to sleep late today, too, since Mrs. YF answered the phone around 10am and her hubby was still snoozing. What are we gonna see when sleep deprivation sets in? The misanthropy might be incalculable.

As usual, The Onion had the best angle on the proceedings:

"Super Bowl Only Circumstance Under Which Jerome Bettis Willing To Return To Detroit"

Okay, call me a terrorist if you wanna, but that version of our national anthem is absolutely the worst thing I have ever subjected my ears to. I can't believe that with all the cash the NFL has they can't come up with at least two performers that are understandable while they sing.
Thank goodness that's over.

Brad attacking two American originals. For shame! The song is to blame. Not the geniuses.

God, please get the Stones off the field and play some football...

The refs, the crowd, and ABC want the Steelers to win. So I'm going for Seattle.

I agree with Nick. It seems like the entire country has a crush on either Big Ben, Troy Polamalu, or Jerome Bettis. And its annoying as hell, especially given the fact that the root of Pittsburgh's playoff run can be traced to that cheapshot on Carson Palmer.

Good God, I wish I had a time machine to get me to opening day!

that throw by Big Ben was historically bad.

While we are on the subject of historically bad: Sweet Jesus, how this anti-Seattle officiating?

How about*

Thank god that's over. Crap up and down the field, refd included. YF nailed it. Were we watching two mid-level college teams duke it out?

It's baseball season, baby!

Haven't seen officiating that craptacularly one-sided since, well, the Steelers-Colts game. Seriously, with his $21B, you'd think that Paul Allen could have made sure the payola reached the right hands. Apparently not, though. What a suckass game. I can't believe the Broncos lost at home to that team. And SF was right when he commented to me post-game that Belichick and Brady must have been banging their heads against a wall for the full sixty minutes watching that suckfest. Blech. Bring on baseball.

Ageed that Seattle got the worst end of the officiating, but then again they seemed to be a true Microsoft team—crashes at every key moment. Let's remember it took those guys super-duper quintuple over time (and three shots of saving divine intervention) just to beat our sad-sack Giants. As for the Steelers, aside from the flea-flicker (defense Seattle?), they hardly played like a team for the ages. Indeed, the fact that the NFL has sunk to such utter mediocrity is why we have so little respect for SF's beloved Pats and their quarterback, who, for the record, seemed to have trouble getting decent air on the coin toss. We're a long way from the superteams of the 80s.

Alright. I don't know about everybody else, but I'm ready for some hot luge action. And bring on the ice dancers.

we have so little respect for SF's beloved Pats and their quarterback

Not going to bite. Stick to baseball, something you have at least modest knowledge of. Or hot luge.

Though we can't avoid posting this about YF's other crush:

The former MVPs were guaranteed $1,000 for incidental expenses while in Detroit. The NFL also provided each former Super Bowl MVP with two first-class airplane tickets, a hotel room, a Cadillac for the weekend, two tickets to the game, two tickets to the Friday night commissioner's party, two tickets to a Saturday night party and two tickets to a Sunday tailgate party. There also were opportunities for paid appearances arranged by the NFL.

Two sources close to the league said Montana refused to attend [the Super Bowl] over money. One of the sources said Montana asked for a guarantee of at least $100,000 for appearances if he came here, and the league said it would not make that guarantee.

YF's right - he's no Tom Brady. He's got none of the class.

I'm not a Montana fan. He's just a far better player than Brady. Now if Simms was demanding $100k to show up, then maybe you'd have something. Or Ottis Anderson.

Trying not to get sidetracked here, but you really don't know football. Montana and Brady compare incredibly well over their first 80 games, and I imagine you would be shocked by their statistical similarity, ignoring both of their "championship auras" altogether, which is indisputable. Of course Brady needs to play another several years to make a career comparisons valid, but that's not really the point here, just whether they are of comparable skills and comparable achievements through the same legs of their careers.

Considering Brady doesn't now and has never played with a guy with the talents of Jerry Rice (Deion Branch is good, but he's no Rice - nobody is), you could even argue he's accomplished something special without a HoF, All-World receiver lining up on the wings. We know that Brady is smart, clutch, and tough (like Joe), and we also know the number of Super Bowls he has won, which compares just fine at this point. Montana had a higher percentage of completions through 80 games, but Brady's thrown for more TDs and more yards.

Stick to baseball, YF.

Those stats have all come in an expanded league in a craptastic division. To compare the two seems absurd; Montana was such a dynamic player. This guy's a basic drop-back passer. Does anyone think Aikman greater than Montana? He's got rings and numbers galore? A better comparison.

Anyway, I stand by Peyton Manning as the better quarterback. To argue for Brady is like saying Jeter's better than A-Rod because he's got rings. Doesn't work. For that matter, give me one quarterback, all time, and I'm taking Marino.

YF, this is how the rest of the world feels about Red Sox - Yankees games.

The people at Football Outsiders who have all kinds of stats seem to suggest that Peyton's #1 (he's been basically every year of his career) and Brady is a respectable #3.

The Brady comp to Aikman seems pretty fair. It doesn't strike me as an insult or fighting words.

Aikman's a Hall of Famer, so it's not a terrible comparison. Again, Brady has a long way to go to be Montana, but at this point he's had a fantastic start, and a chance to be a whole lot better than Aikman.

As for Manning, you're nuts. Talk about a "drive for show putt for dough" kinda guy. Great arm, gaudy stats, and no stomach. You start a new team right now, you start with Brady. That says a ton about Manning, numbers and all.

His team won 13 games in a row this year, including a victory over your beloved Pats. When you're getting knocked on your ass every down, it's hard to be a genius.And there was a time when it was said Elway couldn't win the big one. (As if he had even a prayer against the 86 Giants?) It's a team game. And just remember that but for a couple of clutch field goals Brady's golden aura would be a lot less impressive. Tom Brady is over-rated, especially by SF. If he's so spectacular, why is a wild-card team from his own conference celbrating today? You can't have it both ways.

Tom Brady is over-rated, especially by SF. If he's so spectacular, why is a wild-card team from his own conference celbrating today?

That is, even for you, a moronic statement. They lost not because Brady is "over-rated", but because Brady played terribly in Denver, for the first time in his 11th post-season game. So he lost. He's 10-1. Is Jeter over-rated to you because his team lost to the Angels in the playoffs? (twice!) Or the Sox? Or the Marlins? You can't have it both ways, YF.

As for Manning getting "knocked on his ass every down", I think this pretty much proves that you don't actually watch football. And as for the Colts winning a mid-season game this year? Wowee!! You got me!! Brady isn't as good as Manning!! You proved it! That's like you ascribing tremendous value to the "Jeter into the stands" game from 2004, as if it had any impact on the post-season. Puh-leeze. Manning has insane stats (and yes, we've personally been beating the stats drum here, particularly in the previous thread), but Brady has much better playoff stats, when the competition is brutal, prepared, and representative of the top of the league. It's a better sampling.

Keep digging that football hole, YF, I'm happy to bury you.


Manning's post-season stats:
comp PA yards TD Int
193 322 2461 15 8

225 367 2493 15 5

You're burrying yourself. The hippocracy is mind-boggling. Golden boy gets a pass for his playoff performance, but Manning doesn't. All that matters is playoff performance, and let's forget the team factors.

Your Jeter comparison is apt. I do revere Jeter, and I revere him as much (actually more) for his regular season heroics than for his (statistically questionable postseason mastery, and "clutchness" which probably doesn' exist in either sport). Yet for all my reverence of Jeter, I'm not comparing him to A-Rod, let alone Babe Ruth. But trotting out your very nice, handsome, happened-to-be-"clutch"-in-the-right-game hero and claiming him the equal of Marino or Montana is just flat crazy talk. Spare us all the indignity of your nutjob logic and stop smearing my statements as "moronic" when there's no reasonable defense for your argument.

Golden boy gets a pass for his playoff performance, but Manning doesn't.

No, he doesn't. I consider the total of their playoff performances as important, not one isolated game. Brady was awful this year. No pass given to him this season. But over his career he's been fantastic, particularly in the most pressure-packed moments. Manning has failed in those, and terribly. Don't misconstrue or misunderstand my contentions.

Also, if you want to look at regular season records, just LOOK THE NUMBERS UP. Brady compares favorably with Montana, Marino, Manning, you name it. It's not just the playoffs. The playoffs are part of the story (a big one), but not the whole story.

So what's the over/under on football games YF has watched in the last 5 years, not including the Giants? Anyone want to set a line? Is it in double digits?

Clarification: Brady's passing stats don't compare to Marino's. Almost nobody has numbers like those. I hated the Dolphins but LOVED watching Marino, FYI. Not sure I'd ever say Brady is a better passer than Marino, even after extraordinary rendition.

But playoff success, in this specific case, is no contest.

"Also, if you want to look at regular season records, just LOOK THE NUMBERS UP. Brady compares favorably with Montana, Marino, Manning, you name it. It's not just the playoffs."

The numbers favor Manning over Brady. And I think it's a pretty decent advantage at that. I'm just basing this on Football Outsiders' DPAR rankings which seem analogous to BP's VORP. I'm guessing these stats are legitimate as FO is run y seemingly very smart football people who spend a lot of time developing stats. Who knows? But I don't see how you could say Brady's regular season/career stats compare favorably to Mannings. The Jeter-ARod comp seems apt, although I think Brady's closer to Manning than Jeter is to A-Rod.

For the record, I think we should be capping the Boy in Golden Boy. My bad. But otherwise I'm satisfied my argument here is made, so i'm out. Anyway, the key point is this: football is over. At least for this year. Bring on the Boys of Summer!

The passing stats most definitely compare favorably to Montana's. Manning's numbers are undeniably gaudy, though he threw a ton of interceptions in his frist 6 years, and the Colts weren't terrible for all of those.

But here's the thing: it's more appropriate to compare quarterbacks through their playoff careers than it is to look at baseball players through theirs, and that's because of the nature of the position. The QB position is so damn important, it demands such quick thinking and athleticism that it's unlike any other individual position in team sports. In the playoffs, against the top competition, these skills are even more important. In baseball, perhaps starting pitching is a barely comparable spot due to it's centrality, but even then the physicality and speed of football adds a dimension that trumps it. For this reason I am willing to give Brady tremendous credit for his success, as are most people who know a shred of anything about football, not that that matters. Though his teams have been fantastic, coached brilliantly without a doubt, the QB position is such a difficult one that only superstars can perform at the level he has on such a stage, both throughout the regular season and beyond, and repeatedly. That's the thing. We're not talking about a Trent Dilfer here, a Doug Williams, but a possible Montana (if he makes it long enough) and certainly another Aikman.

Also, remember that Peyton Manning plays his home games in a dome. That will affect numbers and also give a good reason why he's not great on the road during the playoffs. Brady can deal with the weather in Foxboro because he's used to it. Manning can't. Interpret it as you will, but Brady has learned to handle tough conditions, while at this point I don't think Peyton ever could. Maybe I'm wrong, but he's always played in relatively good home conditions, right? So going into Foxboro in January gives the Pats a definate advantage. But in November, when the weather is not so bad, it didn't affect Peyton and the Colts as much. That's why they were able to win in Foxboro. Not because Manning is better than Brady, but because the weather was mild. Also remember that Brady played half the season injured.

YF and Nick, I have to side with SF, here. Manning has all the numbers you could ask for. He's smart, he throws a beautiful ball, and he's won plenty of regular season games. We could go deeper into it and note re the team factor that he's had Edgerrin James in his backfield and Marvin Harrison to pass to for all of his career, and this year, Freeney and a D that was up near tops in the league, not to mention a home field that is indoors and windless and warm whenever they suit up, but let's leave that aside for a second. At this point, no GM in the league would take Manning over Brady. Not one (okay, maybe except Polian, b/c what else can he say?). Manning has peformed horribly during the postseason, and Brady is friggin' 10-1. The one game where he was decidedly off and lost, he still stood in there and took his shots and almost rallied his team, and (as a Broncos fan, I'm loathe to admit this) had it not been for a couple of questionable calls, he could very well have won that game, too. The guy performs freakishly well under pressure, whereas Manning has tended to freeze up and play poorly under similar pressure. If you watched the games, you'd have seen that. It's undeniable. Especially this year, even with the Patriots loss in Denver. Pittsburgh threw blitzes at Manning the whole game, and Peyton was consistently short-arming it, leaning away from hits, rushing plays. The guy is All-World when he can just stand in the pocket and has time, but he's just another QB when he's got a guy in his face. The Broncos were blasting Brady all game, and he would get up, get in John Lynch's grill and tell him to bring it on, and hustle back to the huddle. You have to admire a guy like that (esp. when your QB is Jake Plummer). I mean, look, Manning might get his ring yet, and he might prove himself to be a tough QB yet, but to date, none of this has happened. And frankly, this year, he had ALL the factors going for him and he still couldn't get it even close to done.

But Nick, I'm curious, who was #2 in that QB ranking that you mentioned? Carson Palmer?

ps - Please don't compare Manning with Elway. Elway put the team on his back and took the Broncos to three Super Bowls when there was NO ONE else on the team. He was throwing to guys like Steve Watson and Ricky Nattiel. Sure, they got crushed each time, but he got them there, which is way more than PM has done, and note also that that as soon has he had help in the form of Terrell Davis, they won two rings in a row. Stats-wise, Elway got knocked on his ass more than any QB in NFL history, and he still managed to do what he did. Plus, he had 47 fourth-quarter game winning drives to his credit, which is about as anti-Peyton a stat as I can think of. Brad, you concur?

Right, Laura, I'm totally with you re the dome factor. I'd love to see how Manning would fare at, say, Lambeau Field for 8 games a year. He'd look a lot more like Eli, I'd imagine.

Spidey, a man of reason and truth. How he roots for the Yanks we'll never understand.

And he forgot to mention that Elway markets some MEAN home furniture, a budding Eames or Bertoia. Who knew!?

Never mind that I'm not a football fan (though am trying to learn to appreciate the game), but how disgusted and insulted was I when that ridiculous ad came on about how football was the all-American game?! Not only was that commercial a hideously veiled attempt at patriotism in these troubled times, BASEBALL is the all-American game!! Pah! Nothing better than watching a game at Fenway while sweating in the sun and imbibing waaay too many $6 beers, interpersed with Fenway Franks, nachos and soft serve...*urp*

Spidey, it was Carson Palmer indeed.

FWIW, I think both players are great. My guess is that Manning would have won the same number of super bowls as Brady if he were on the Pats instead of Brady. But maybe I'm too attuned to thinking in terms of baseball, and I'm over-rating stats. I don't know. Based on my scout's eye, I think Manning is better than Brady. But I'm not one to say that Brady is over-rated. Just not as good as Manning.

My guess is that Manning would have won the same number of super bowls as Brady if he were on the Pats instead of Brady.

Disclaimer: I'm biased. But no way. No way Manning wins the game against the Raiders. no way Manning wins the -4 degree game against the Titans at which my Uncle Stinky lost feeling in his big toe for three weeks. No way Manning wins the two games against, er, the Colts. No chance. Zippo.

Horse beaten. Dead.

When do P&C's report again? The Hype/Corporate/Media Bowl is over. Bring on WBC I.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Search YFSF

Sports Gambling


schedule & standings