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Friday, November 04, 2005


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you use lots of big words, but it still seems like theo backlash to me.

imho, the first guy to win a WS for boston since the woodrow wilson administration can be forgiven for having some pretty gigantic further ambitions.

and frankly, i don't see what's so ridiculous about giving him a higher station, given what he's accomplish. *whatever* it was he wanted, i think he should have gotten it--and i still think the sox screwed the pooch.

Hey, I am on the record that I think the Sox are worse off without Theo, that I wish he were returning, that the Sox are in a very bad spot mostly of their own doing. But Theo probably wasn't an angel in this whole situation, and his ambitions, whether we think the Sox screwed up by not fulfilling them, may have been unrealistic considering the Red Sox ownership and management scenario. Just because we fans (and Epstein himself, clearly) think he deserved such power and control doesn't mean that he was being realistic to expect that Henry and Lucchino would fork it over. They called his bluff, and then he called theirs. Everyone loses, in their own way.

I think SF hit the nail on the head. Everyone loses. The Red Sox fans, the Red Sox, Theo, everyone. I wish there were a way to work this out. I haven't read anything about any replacements being interviewed or even spoken with, and it just seems to me that it makes too much sense for Theo to stay with the Red Sox. Does anyone else still hold out hope that this situation can be repaired?

Sorry to throw a wrench into your equation, but I can think of a more than a few winners in this scenario, and the list starts with Yankee fans. Woot.

Your Shadenfreude makes me misty eyed as a Sox fan, YF ...


Thanks! I am positive I will post some of my own soon enough.


Of course, YF freelances intellectually, as he knows that the term "everyone" refers to those parties listed in the specific comment, not a universal "everyone" including Yankees fans. He also fails to remind us that the Yankees pitching staff still has Jaret Wright on it, so the pendulum hasn't swung entirely.

Great back and forth here...wish there was but but a quiet weekend is upon us.

Let's just hope that the immediate replacement is not going to come in with a full head of steam and do something crazy (say Papelbon) just to try and quickly get out of the shadow. Also, the more I think about it - didn't Theo learn almost everything he knows about being a GM from Lucchino? I've never been the guy to toot the horn of a GM who has an unlimited payroll and faithful crowd of people applauding every bad move made, but who's to say nearly every GM out there doesn't make the same moves as Theo (and Cash for that matter) with the resources at hand? How hard is it to go get the best players available?
The Nomar trade was a huge one, but does anyone really think it was out of pure baseball know-how or more along the lines of get something while we can?
I don't think it's as bad as we think.
I hope it's not as bad as we think.

> Can there be any question that Theo
> has an ego as large as Larry's?

Yes, there can be.

He does not have Larry's hubris and arrogance, either. Can anyone imagine the Evil Emperor thinking about taking a sabbatical to fight poverty in South America?

This sure seems like Theo backlash to me.

You guys can call it what you want, but my main point is that there were two parties in this deal, both of whom clearly have huge senses of their own value and ability, perceptions that may not be entirely accurate (that's "ego", in my book). It seems pretty much inarguable that Lucchino is the bogeyman here, a crass and possibly cowardly man who alienated a very important employee. But Theo isn't exempt, and pointing that out isn't backlash, or placing the blame in Epstein's lap, but simply a reasonable observation. I don't think Theo's a choirboy. That was one reason why he made a good GM.


I saw these "Larry Lucchino Sucks" shirts on a google search for theo epstein:

You think if enough Boston fans wear them we can get him fired?

If the Theo Epstein drama wasn't enough to chase him out of town, a few thousand shirts being used to stir up even more bad blood in the front office sure enough isn't going to do the trick. Besides, Lucchino knows what he is doing from a baseball standpoint. People can blame Lucchino and Henry all they want, but since we all have absolutely no idea what the REAL story is concerning the break-up, it does no good to put all the blame on the side of of Boston's front office; to be sure Theo Epstein is not without blame himself. We would all be better off to not be too upset at one side or another until we all have the facts.
Wearing a shirt that says "Larry Lucchino sucks" is as stupid as the fans wearing the shirts that say "New York Sucks" -
Clearly neither one fits the bill. It's just the typical Dirt Dog mentality of absolutely killing everyone involved with anything that does not go the popular way of what the fans want. How the hell do we know that it's not Epstein himself that sucks?
Clearly we all wanted him back, but to just assume that it was ALL Lucchino and none of Theo is crazy. I happen to believe that Theo did good things, but I'm a little more worried about Bostons first base and outfield situations right now. Lucchino and Henry are going to take care of the GM problem. Any GM who steps in is not going to make the decisions on his own anyhow. Let's worry about things that matter. Like who's going to actually be ON the field next year -
Just my thoughts.

From Gordon Edes:

Sox name candidates
By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff

"The Red Sox have announced their first two interviews in the GM search. Jim Beattie, the former Expo GM who was part of the two-headed disaster in Baltimore, and Jim Bowden, the Weston native who thrilled Washington by keeping the Nationals in the NL East race for much of the season, will interview for the job.

The Sox have contacted two other prospective candidates but their names have yet to be announced"

If, in fact, the Sox are seriously considering Bowden for the gm spot, then the Nation is truly screwed.

Going from Epstein to Bowden would be the GM equivalent of trading David Ortiz for Tony Womack.

Can he bring Cristian Guzman with him?!?! Wheee!!!!!

(I hope, pray, this isn't true...)

"Going from Epstein to Bowden would be the GM equivalent of trading David Ortiz for Tony Womack."

perfect analogy

While I’m loving the soap opera, I’ll have to admit that Theo deserves a swollen head, some cash commensurate with what was offered to Beane (what has BB won anyway?), and maybe a longer title under his name. Stake in the franchise is going too far, unless he had the cash to buy in and someone was willing to sell. But that’s all moot.

The real issue is that while he made many mistakes along the way, he got the job done. Period. Winning is all that matters. I hate it when Yankee-haters (and some Yankee fans) nit-pick at greatness and those who achieve it. RSN shouldn’t hate on the only real hero they have had in their lifetimes – a hometown boy who did what no one else has done.

SF, let Theo die a legend’s death. If Joe Torre walked out in a huff this year, it would have been Big Stein’s fault, right? I certainly would have said so.

I think I have established who I think bears the blame for this snafu. Theo will always share some space at the top of the Sox' pantheon for me, with a bunch of other guys. But he does have an ego. And it did play a role. That's all.

Two years ago, any team could have had Manny for the waiver price. Now the Mets are supposed to give up their top prospects, including Lastings Milledge.

Obviously the Red Sox should get what they can, but has their strategy changed that much? Did their strategy depend on getting two players who are no longer available and do they therefore now want him? Did they just come to their senses? What?

The Sox without Manny, Pedro, Mueller, Millar and Damon ... who would replace them? The Yanks don't see many centerfielders available and apparently don't want Damon because of his age and contract demands.

PS: Nomah sure was smaht to turn down that long-term, big-bucks contract from the Sox. Who's going to sign him? Not the Cubbies, they say.

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